(1) Find and read E.L. Epstein's essay on Lord of the Flies in the back of your Lord of the Flies book. It is on pages 203-208. (2) Using 25-35 quoted words of Epstein's, respond to his assertions with 80+ words of your own. Epstein is respected throughout America as a preeminent literary scholar. What do you think about Epstein's ideas?
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67 comments:
"The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island. The officer, having interrupted a man-hunt, prepares to take the children off the island in a cruiser which will presently be hunting its enemy in the same implacable way. And who will rescure the adult and his cruiser?"
-I found this excerpt interesting, b/c it's talking about how Golding is showing us that no matter what help comes for us, there will always be new problems awaiting on the horizon for us to deal with. It is a never ending process of stuggle to survive, whether it be between the salvages and Ralph, or the adult and his cruiser vs other countries navy's and whatnot.
"The Devil is not present in any traditional religious sense; Golding's Beelzebub is the modern equivalent, the anarchic, amoral, driving force that Freudians call the Id, whose only function seems to be to insure the survival of the host in which it is embedded or embodied, which function it performs with tremendous and single-minded tenacity."
-I chose this excerpt as well, b/c it clearly depicts the use of a Devel figure, or Satan, in the sence that Jack and his tribe are on the island for themselves and not in the mood to help anyone else, which is why they must kill Ralph and Piggy. It also shows once again an example of an Id by comparing the Beelzebub figure to either Jack and his tribe, or the boar's head on a spear. Freud made it clear to us that the purpose for an Id is to live for themselves and insure the survival of the host in whhich it is embodded or embodied.
*Over all, I really thought that E.L. Epstein's essay was informative and I could really agree with what he wrote. His ideas on how Golding used Ego's and Id's in this novel was right on the money for me...I agreed with what he wrote and I also really liked how he pulled out one specific exerpt about the killing of the sow and how it is accomplished in terms of sexual intercouse...it really relates to my paper on 'if humans really think about sex constantly'
“The Devil is not present in any traditional religious sense; Golding’s Beelzebub is the modern equivalent, the anarchic, amoral, driving force that Freudians call the Id, whose only function seems to be to insure the survival of the host in which it is embedded or embodied, which function it performs with tremendous and single-minded tenacity.”
-I agree the devil is not presented in a traditional religious sense because when people think of the devil they think of hell where the devil lives and is waiting for all the souls that did not come to Jesus. The devil comes out in Lord of the Flies when Jacks trip starts to do mean things to Ralph’s trip and it really comes out when his trip kills Simon. That is Beelzebub inside each and every one of use telling us to do what we know deep down inside is wrong. Golding is saying and I totally agree that the devil is not just sitting and waiting for lost souls to come to him. The devil goes out and tries to make us do things that are morally wrong to get us to fall away from what is morally right in the world.
"The theme of LORD OF THE FLIES is described by GOlding as follows (in the same publicity questionnaire): "The themem is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any politiacal system however apparently logiical or espectable. The wole book is symoblic in ature except the rescue in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symoblic life of the children on the island. THe officer, having iinterrupted a man-hunt, prepares to take the children off the island in a cruiser which will presently be hunting its ememy in the same implacable way. And who will rescue the adult and his cruiser?"" (204).
I agree with Epstien. He has a valued point. This book realates to how humans defect society today. People interfear with nature and become a total different person. And the rescue in the end is totaly different than what was going on though out the entire rest of the book. I agree with Epstien, what will hapen on the cruiser? The boys are on a man hunt when interfeared with. Will they be excited about rescue or contune thier man hunt. What will they be like when they return to thier home. Epstien makes a very valued point in this expertion from his writeing.
His notes addes a little extra to think about and i agree with most of this essay of his.
"Simon fights with all his feeble power against the message of the head, against the "ancient, inescapable recognition," the recognition of human capacities for evil and the superficial nature of human moral systems. It is the knowledge of the end of innocence, for which Ralph is to weep at the close of the book"(207).
Simon is the christ like character in the book. He represents innocence, and the good of man's nature. When he is alone in the clearing and looks up to see Beelzebub, he begins to argue with it and against it's message. This is like in the Bible when the devil tempts Jesus. This scene is the turning point of the book, when there is no longer good on the island. There is a little bit of the Devil (Beast) inside all of us. You can't run or hide from it, and you can't kill it. You can either let it take control or fight it with what is true and good. Ralph realizes that the innocence of mankind, the innocence he grew up with no longer exsists within the boys, which is why he weeps at the end of the book.
“The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescuer in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island (204).”
I think that when the adult appears it can be symbolic too, because he stops all the madness and the man chase that is going on. The officer will bring them back to civilization. To me the whole book is symbolizing what can potentially happen in society, and what is already happening. You could say the conflicts between the two tribes relates to “world peace,” and how everything seem to be a war for more power or the best nation.
I can tell Epstein is a literary scholar, because I have a hard time understanding most of the vocabulary that he uses. I get the gist of what he is saying though, and I understand most of the symbolism in the book.
"What is unique about the work of Golding is the way he has combined and synthesized all of the charateristically twentieth-century methods of analysis of the human being and human society and used this unified knowledge to comment on a "test situation." In this book, as in few of all schools, anthropologists, social psychologists and philosophical historians mobilized into an attack upon the central problem of modern thought: the nature of the human personality and the reflection of personality on society"(205).
In this passage Epstein talks about how Golding used ways that kids act in normal life. There are always kids around that pick on somebody, in the book, Piggy being the target. Golding is trying to stop these things that happen in everyday life. We need to treat people good, and not like the kids that turned into savages. The become inhumane. Epstein talks about the central problem of modern thought. I think he is saying that the major problem is of how people react to certain people's personality. Just because one person is isn't seen as perfect in one person's eyes does not mean you should treat them badly or different from anybody else.
I think Epstein has some good ideas. It helped me understand a lot more about the book. It is helpful to see what points Golding was trying to make. I think everybody can learn some lessons by Epstein bringing out Golding's main points.
- The theme of LORD OF TEH FLIES is described by Golding as follows (in the same publicity questionare): "The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. Th moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any poitical system however apparently logical or respectable." - Pg. 204
I agree with E.L. Epstein one hundred percent, he is exacty right when he says, "the theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society." Humans nature and society is naturally corrupt as the bible states, weather someone is religious or not it is just a proven fact that people are extremely corrupt and evil. Some people are much worse than others, but all in all everyone has the evil thoughts crossing their mind frequently. The boys in the book are somewhat organized at the beginning of the book, but when things start to get hard things start to get worse. Ralph is basically corrupt from the beginning and his negativity is dispersed throughout all the other boys accept Ralph and Piggy. This shows the point that Epstein is trying to make, human nature is defected and far from perfect. These boys all want the best for themselfs and want to become rescued(they dont realize it but they do/will want to be eventually), but their imperfect and corrupt nature is holding them back from being saved. The boys get caught up in the killing, dancing, rioting, and freedom from thier parents (or any other authortive figure) that they put aside the good and "NATURALLY" become evil.
I think that this guy is pretty smart in knowing what Golding is trying to tell the reader. I probably wouldn't have read this if it wasn't an assingment but I'm glad I did it brought the book into more of logical thougt for me.
"The turning point in this struggle between Ralph and Jack is the killing of the sow (pp.133-144). The sow is a mother: 'sunk in deep maternal bliss lay the largest of the lot...the great bladder of her belly was fringed with a row of piglets that slept or burrowed and squeaked.' The killing of the sow is accomplished in terms of sexual intercourse."
-I agree with E.L. Epstein only 50% here. His idea makes sense, and as Eric Hanson puts it in his essay, the boys will never experience sex if they stay on the island and are stranded there for the rest of their lives. So in thinking that the killing of the sow equals the hunting tribe's first experience of sex, E.L. Epstein's ideas make sense to me but i don't neccessarily agree with it. When reading the excerpt from the book when the boys kill the pig, it doesn't come accross to me as a sexual reference until you read E.L. Epstein's essay. It just seems like a detailed scene of how they killed the pig, not anything related to sex. It makes me wonder if Golding was doing this purposefully or if it is a coincidence.
"The theme of the Lord of the Flies is described by Golding as follows (in the same publicity questionnaire): 'The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable. The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island. The officer, having interrupted a man-hunt, prepares to take the children off the island in a cruiser which will presently be hunting its enemy in the same implacable way. And who will rescue the adult and his cruiser?' (204)".
-I do agree that the whole book is symbolic. Also, I believe that Golding did a very good job of "tracing the defects of society back to the defects of human nature". I also like that at the end of the book an officer comes to rescue them. He is an adult but he is dealing with the same struggle (the war) the boys are going through. And Golding makes a good point when he asks who will save the adult.
Also....
"The turning point in the struggle between Ralph and Jack is the killing of the sow (pp. 133-144). The sow is a mother: "sunk in deep maternal bliss lay the largest of the lot...the great bladder of her belly was fringed with a row of piglets that slept or burrowed and squeaked." The killing of the sow is accomplished in terms of sexual intercourse. (206)".
-I honestly did not think about this scene sexually at all when I first read this. But then, when E.L. Epstein mentioned this in his essay and put an excerpt from the book in it, I re-read it and realized that if you think about it in a sexual kind of way when you are reading it that he is totally right. It looks exactly how Epstein says it does.
"The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently lofical or respectable."(204)
This passage really got me. The idea he proposes here is very revolutionary, and I don't think society is ready for it. Here, the messege of the book becomes clear, a society that is managed by what is right and good for individuals, not society that is run by big business or big governemnt. You hear about things all the time where people do something nice or extraordinary for someone else, but why shouldn't this be the norm? Do we really need someone to tell us what we can and can't do? Why do we need a business to treat us like products? These are all questions that are finally brought to our attention in the novel. It's become clear now that we are acutally not doing what is best, we are over critical and self destructive as a society(all of humanity, not just the USA). We kill for oil instead of finding better ways to help the enviroment, we kill for diamonds, and we don't even need them. There are plenty examples of things that our society shouldn't be proud of that we're proud of anyway. But, I will also say that even though these rules make us evil, I think they are also necessary. If we let all people loose so they can figure out things with they're morals, then people would do crazy things. Some people can't handle that type of freedom, and would make bad decisions. If people could understand the difference between what they want and what they need, then we could have a pretty good society.
"The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and no t on any political system however apparently logical or respectable"(204).
I agree with this statement entirely. Our society does not depend on the political system but on the morality of the people. Without people's self control and moral behavior our society would be nonexistent. There really is nothing stopping the human race acting like savages and animals. After looking at and listening to the excerpt from The Road I realized that for some, the instinct to survive is greater than ethics and the sense of right and wrong. In the Lord of the Flies the boys are symbolic of the adults when on the island. They get rescued by the adult but he's in war and there's no one to rescue him from his enemy. When one reads a book like Lord of the Flies they think how horrible and inhumane and disgusting it is for kids to be killing each other and acting so barbaric, but why is it different when they do it compared to adults? I think humans as a whole look at killing each other too casually because most of us will never have to be in a situation where we'd have to make a decision that controls someone else's fate, and no one knows what they'd do in a situation until there actually in it. We might think or hope what we would do in a situation but we can't truly know. It seems humans have never really been at peace and there's always a war of some kind going on. However, when most of us think of war and killing we don't really understand everything that comes with it but everyone has a soul and a family that comes to realize death is very real and no matter what, the opposition is always evil regardless of the side you're on.
"The "lord of the flies" is a translation of the Hebrew Ba'alzevuv (Beelzebub in Greek). It has been suggested that it was a mistranslation of a mistransliterated word which gave us this pungent and suggestive name for the Devil, a devil whose name suggests that he is devoted to decay, destruction, demoralization, hysteria and panic and who therefore fits in very well with Golding's theme." (page 205)
This book "lord of the flies" is all about decay, destruction, demoralization, hysteria and panic. Golding did an amazing job writing this book! He is a wonderful writer. I am glad that he followed his own steps and not his parents. At the beginning of the book it was quite happy and everybody was generous towards each other. Then as people got sick of working and doing their jobs, tensons will rise. As people started getting stressed, they seperated into hunters and Ralph's tribe. This is because of Beelzebub, there is a Devil inside all of us. Some more then others, some louder then others. Trust everybody, just don't trust the devil inside of them!
"The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparantly logical or respectable" (204).
In terms of the connection he believes exists between society and nature, I feel he has stated a very valid point. Human nature is based on how one is brought up in addition to their personality. In society there are always conflicting point of views causing tribulations, which are then relfected back upon society. As humans we are prone to fault and until we find a way to prevent those faults our society will continually be defected. Epstein then proceeds on by saying that our morals play an important role on how society turns out. The way he is stating his views makes it sound like our society should be formed by each individual but, in reality, society is a group of people as a whole. Also, I do not see the problem in having a political power that is logical and respectable ruling our society. One could argue that that is what is being done today.
"the whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island. the officer, having interrupted a man-hunt, prepares to take the children off the island in a cruiser which will presently be hunting its enemy in the same implacable way. and who will rescue the adult and his cruiser."
~i found this passage interesting still, even tho you have been preaching over and over again how golding is getting the point across that hopefully people dont turn into savages like the boys and how the boys' mentors are war heroes. i know golding purposely did it but i still find it ironic that the US Navy captain came to the island on his ship to see what the fire was about and saves ralph, the only civilized boy, from being hunted and killed. the captain, being a "civilized american" is acting like a savage toward the communists and hunting them down and killing them but for good reason.the boys need to be stopped from killing each other like the rest of the world needed to be stopped from blowing up the entire planet.
"The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable."
I agree that the ethics of society should depend on the individuals of the society and not the government. Where would our country be now had people in the 1920's had the ethics of President Warren G. Harding's administration, one of the most corrupt presidental administrations? I think that Golding was making a statement urging the world to stay away from communism, considering this book was written post WWII during the Cold War. In a perfect world, the concept of communism is not that bad of an idea. However, in reality this will never be the case because of the greed and corruption of those in power (Ferdinand Marcos, Pol Pot).
"The emergence of this concealed, basic wildness is the theme of the book; the struggle between Ralph, the representative of civilization with his parliaments and his brain trust (Piggy, the intellectual whose shattering spectacles mark the progressive decay of rational influence as the story progresses), and Jack, in whom the spark of wildness burns hotter and closer to the surface than in Ralph and who is the leader of the forces of anarchy on the island, is also, of course, the struggle in modern society between those same forces translated onto a worldwide scale.”
I agree with E. L. Epstein that Ralph can control the wildness better than Jack. The island is a representation of how the world was at the time the book was written. The symbolism of the book is what makes this book so great. Piggy’s spectacles mean more than just sight to Piggy, they also mean fire and the fire means rescue. When the specs are broken it symbolizes the end of organized society for the island. When the tribes split Ralph said that he would share the fire while Jack wanted the fire for himself. This shows that Ralph is the better person because if two tribes have fire their chances of someone seeing a fire increases. Jack wants the fire to himself because the fire represents power and he wants all the power like Hitler wanted all the power.
-the killing of the sow is accomplished in terms of sexual intercourse.
-i agree and disagree to this. i disagree because when you first read it you don't really realize that it is there but if you look for it you can visulize what i would say is a rape happening and then a murder. i beilive that the killing of the sow is a turning point for the boys in witch they no longer are "human," they have experienced something life changing.
-the boys cut her head off and make a trophy for "the beast." the entire incident forms a horrid parody of an oedipal wedding night; these emotions, the sensations aroused by murder and death, and the overpowering and unaccustomed emotions of sexual love experienced by the half-grown boys, plus their own irrational fears and blind terrors, release the forces of death and the devil on the island."
-i believe that golding is saying that people themselves make hate and cause hate. golding is hoping that people learn from this and do not turn into savages or turn away from being civil.
-it was an amazing essay :)
"The sturggle btween Ralph, the representative of civilization with his parliaments and his brain trust (Piggy, the intellectual whose shattering spectacles mark the progressive decaay of rational influence as the story progresses),
I think Ralph and Jack in the noval explain how the world is. I find it interesting that in the book all the kids end up going with jack because he is the stronger leader who can get food have fun and who is a better convincer. I think this is how it is in the real world also it is a fight between different kind of people just like jack and ralph. It always seems like people end up going with the stronger speaker or stronger person, even if that speaker is doing bad things. I think this relates to the holycost because jack was like hitler in many ways he killed people if they didnt agree with him and jack was a dictator like hitler and everyone went along with jack even though what he was doing was wrong.
The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable. (204)
-this passage really spoke to me about what golding is trying to portray with this book. it as a whole shows us not only as students but as people that we as humans learn many things, the ways we are brought up with the evils of this world can be shown at any moment, any time. not only this but also, it is a true statement in the essay that we should and can be led by an idividual depending on their moral background and that determines the conseqencial rise or fall or any civilization, you can fit that into any sense, without a strong individual with the right mindset eventually the country or in the novels case the boys will breakdown and fall apart. you can take hitler's germany, stalin's russia, mussolini's italy all during world war 2, they all had terrible ethics in the way they ran things, by oppression and fear. this led to germanys fall, mussolini being drug behind a cart, and eventually stalins death as well and they breakdown of all of their countries "ish". the way i see it, to raise a good country that prospers you need a strongly motivated person or multiple people with the right ideas, the right morals, the right ethics if you will and after that is set, the political system will follow to create some sense of order for the public. in the end for anything of this sort to work, they both need to coexist with one another or in the end, it will all crumble apart.
"The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of soceity back to the defects of human nature" -William Golding
What better way to look at society than through the eyes of children? They are prefectly impressionable, and pick up on whatever traits parents, teachers, or icons tell them to. We blame the boys on the island from becoming savage and inhumane, but look at the world we have created. There is war on all sides, and somehow because we are older and "wiser" the killing is justified. America loves the strong and the survival of the fittest, and we can see it start from an early age. Ralph, Jack, Piggy, and company show what is wrong at the base of human nature: lust for power. Now take this theme and amplify it to an entire society and you get war, economic inequality, and prejudice. Golding did exactly what he set out to do by showing us that all we are is a bunch of grown-up, selfish children with lofty titles, big guns, and fancy cars.
"The theme of lord of the flies is described by Golding as follows (in the same publicity questionnaire): "the them is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature"(204)
-This message is saying that if society was brought up in a different way it would effect how human nature is today. If society was brought up that eating humans was just fine then in human nature it would be a natural thing. He could be also saything that how society is has physically changed it changed how humans are today. If we did not change that we had slaves and still had them today then if would be more inhuman but we wouldn't know because we, as a society, always have known it in that way.
The theme of The Lord of The Flies is described by Godling as follows: "The theme is an atempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature.
What I believe William is trying to say is that nature and the human race both correspond to one another and we depend on one another. And another huge factor in America nowadays is winning and being successfull. If you dont win and have money you are looked down upon. America is also about surviving and coming out on top. Just like how the kids had to survive on the island but the beast wasn't a; hurricane, terrorism or a deathly animal meerly it was themselves the mankind. So if we havent of changed since WWII we would still be dropping massive bombs everywhere and who knows if we would be here today. Golding did exactly what he tried to do show that all humans have some evil and greed it just matters to what extent you have it.
"The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature."
If you think about what this says, it says alot. One of the themes in this book is society vs. human nature. Society doesn't overpower human nature in this book. Human nature and surviving is more important towards doing what is right and civilized. In the middle to the end, the boys just go and do what they want without listening to anyone, but Jack, the leader. They turn their back on Ralph just to survive. Surviving can also compare to killing people or animals just to have food. I am glad they got rescued at the so Ralph didn't die, just because everyone didn't like him anymore.
"The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable."
I think he means that the theme in this book is that you need to be able to survive on your own without relying on other people to help you. Throughout the book Ralph never relied on his own, he always had Piggy helping him. And once Piggy was killed he still never relied on himself because the navy/army came and saved everyone. Being a person in society you have to be able to rely on yourself because you won't always have someone to rely on. Like in college you don't have your mom and dad to rely on anymore and if you don't know anyone that is going to the same college you won't even have your friends to rely on.
"The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature." This description is connected completely to the book. I just really like the way it is worded and how it is so on the point of this book. I also agree about the fact that Golding uses alot of amazing symbolizm. I cant bring it to mind that Golding has thought up a name for the devil, when I first started to read this book I had no idea the title had other meanings, I imagined it to be a man on an island with alot of flies or maybe the flies were boys and the lord was the pig or a leader of some sort. I cant bring it to realization that Golding came up with beelzebub, I had never herd of that word/name until now and it fits the "beast" in an uncanny way, it is rediculous. I had no Idea that the title had so much meaning. Golding talks about the defects of society, I think he is refering to our world and how we have made it and without structure we would have alot of chaos. He also talks about our human nature, to me he is talking about our natural feelings and thoughts. Things that come naturaly, like building shelter, finding food, leadership. Goldings book totally relates to this excerpt I picked out. The idea of society and human nature are really large parts in the events of this book. What Golding writes about is above and beyond me, it is brilliant and I really liked the way it ended and the whole of the book was intriguing.
"The Devil is not present in any traditional religious sense; Golding's Beezlebub is the modern equivalent, the anarchic, amorl, driving force that Freudians call the Id, whose only function seems to be to insure the survival of the host in which it is embedded or embodied, which function it performs with tremendous and single-minded tenacity".
I agree with Golding's statement because he has proven a point that has existed for a long time since man has walked this planet. This also reflects how when Jesus came along and people became followers of him and believed he was doing everything right. Until some people didnt believe in him and crucified Jesus. Goldings statement has long since repeated itself through history and time. Even now this has happend in the twenty first century when Osama Bin Ladden came to power and he was doing the devils work of hiring terrorists to destroy the Two Twin Towers. Golding is basically saying that no matter what we do we cant balance good or evil whether we like it or not.
“The emergence of this concealed, basic wildness is the them of the book; the struggle between Ralph, the representative of civilization with his parliaments and his brain trust (Piggy, the intellectual whose shattering spectacles mark the progressive decay of rational influence as the story progresses), and Jack, in whom the spark of wildness burns hotter and closer to the surface than in Ralph and who is the leader of the forces of anarchy on the island, is also, of course, the struggle in modern society between those same forces translated onto a worldwide scale.”
* I think that Epstein has many great points in this quote. If you really think about it, Ralph does represent civilization with rules. Every time Ralph speaks he is always trying to establish order and rules. Piggy uses Ralph as his person to get his point across. He is the brain of the island. When Piggy’s glasses break it shows a break in society. With this break it is hard to keep or mend the broken society back together. This break is kept strong with the help of Jack. He is the force that broke the glasses and is the force that will keep the society broken.
This is Eric Dieren's Post...I couldn't get my blog name to work so I'm publishing it on LeAnn's
"The emergence of this concealed, basic wildness is the theme of the book; the struggle between Ralph, the representative of civilization with his parliaments and his brain trust (Piggy, the intellectual whose shattering spectacles mark the progressive decay of rational influence as the story progresses), and Jack, in whom the spark of wildness burns hotter and closer to the surface than in Ralph and who is the leader of the forces of anarchy on the island, is also, of course, the struggle in modern society between those same forces translated onto a worldwide scale.”
I feel that in the book Jack and Ralph show how people are in the real world. Jack being the strong one that can provide for his people but doesn't have any order. Ralph, on the other hand, has plenty of order and thinks more like a responsible adult. Piggy also represents a responsible adult which is why him and Ralph stay together until Piggy bites the dust. Everyone betrays Ralph and Piggy by going to join Jack's tribe. I think they all left Ralph because Ralph was too much like their parents. Ralph wanted to maintain the fire and keep order throughout the tribe. Personally, Mr. Christensen, I feel I would side with Ralph, but it would be tough not to join the others with the hunting and games.
"In this book, as in few others at the present time, are findings of psychoanalysts of all schools, anthropologists, social psychologists and philosophical historians mobilized into an attack upon the central problem of modern thought: the nature of the human personality and the reflection of personality on society" (205).
This quote by Epstein explains the major theme Golding was trying to get across with writing his novel of "Lord of the Flies." Epstein was trying to ask what is it triggers someones mind from going to a civilized nature to and animal like nature? Ralph and Piggy I believe represent the only civilized nature that is left on the island at the end of the novel. Jack and his gang are the examples of the animalistic nature that can be brought out in human beings. What is it that triggers someones animal instincts? Everyones minds work differently. I believe what triggers people's animalistic behaviors has to do with how happy and optimistic a person is or I believe it also depends on how that person deals with stress? Throughout the novel Ralph and Piggy continue to be optimistic, believing they can still be rescued, even though everyone in their tribe has left them to join Jack. I believe what triggered Jack's animal instincts was the fact that he was pesimistic by thinking their was no way they could get off the island, and that they might as well give up and try to find ways to survive. Jack's way of survival was hunting, trying to find meat. Once he started hunting Ralph noticed a different look in his eye, one that I could compare to as a look of a wild bear. So what is crazy? Everyone has their own definiton of what normal is, so how can we diagnose someone of being insane? Maybe everyone who is seen as "normal" are the true crazy ones for judging people who are different, because they are not open to new ways of thinking and news ways of dealing with things. In my opinion people are too eager to judge others, because if you think about it if you judge others for being different there is probably someone else out there that is judging you for the same thing. So can normal really be defined? If not why do people judge eachother? It is an endless cycle that can never really be understood.
“The emergence of this concealed, basic wildness is the them of the book; the struggle between Ralph, the representative of civilization with his parliaments and his brain trust (Piggy, the intellectual whose shattering spectacles mark the progressive decay of rational influence as the story progresses), and Jack, in whom the spark of wildness burns hotter and closer to the surface than in Ralph and who is the leader of the forces of anarchy on the island, is also, of course, the struggle in modern society between those same forces translated onto a worldwide scale.”
This part of Epstein's analysis caught my eye. Epstein clearly uncovers the theme to this interesting novel about the struggle of survival and the battle between superego, ego, and id. Ralph is the "father" of the children on the island. He is fighting to keep things civil on the island and to maintain order. He shows that he really wants to be rescued and act in a mature manner, unlike Jack who is the complete opposite. Jack is a wild and careless character, who focuses on his wants rather than his needs throughout the story. Jack is the "ruler" of the island because he has the other boys wrapped around his finger. He has them brainwashed in a sense into following his lead and doing as they please on the island rather than doing what is right and what needs to be done. Ralph and Jack symbolize two different worlds; Ralph being one under order and under control, and Jack being one without structure or rule. At the beginning of the book, Jack and Ralph seemed to get along and people would have never guessed that things would have ended up the way that they did. However, being stranded on the island kind of stripped the boys of their "innocence" and showed them who they really were. This helps Golding show rather than tell his idea of how society can affect a person so much in order to drain their "human" qualities from them and make them more of a beast than a person.
--I was reading through past blogs and I agree with McKenzie Stowater about Piggy’s glasses symbolizing the break in society when they are broken. I never thought of it that way and it made me dig deeper into the novel. :)
"The theme of lord of the flies is described by Golding as follows (in the same publicity questionnaire): "the them is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature"
I believe that this is saying that human nature is dependent on the environment that we were brought up in. Humans acted differently a few centuries ago when all of Europe was trying to claim as much land as possible but if a country was trying to do that today we would consider it imperialism and would step in to stop them. The way that you act is dependent on your environment and i believe that Golding was trying to say that if anyone was stuck in the situation that these boys were in that we would go back to basic human nature which would make us act like animals instead of humans, just trying to survive instead of thinking of the reprocutions just like these once proper British boys did.
“The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescuer in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island.”
The presence of an adult immediately brought order to the island because Jack's tribe suddenly stops when they see the adult. I think that if an adult would have been present the from the beginning then the boys would not have been so corrupt. This doesnt mean that corruption would have never occurred it just means that it would have taken a lot longer than it took the boys by themselves. This book really made me consider the need for adult supervision in many situations.
The theme of LORD OF THE FLIES is described by Golding as follows(in the same publiciy questionnaire): "The theme is an attempt to trace tthe defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable. The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island. The officer, having interrupted a man-hunt, prepares to take the children off teh in a cruiser which will presently be hunting its enemy in teh same implacable way. And who will rescue the adult and his cruiser?"(204)
- This E.L. Epstein sure knows how to write an essay. He makes alot of valid points pertaining to Golding's novel. I agree with Epstein's when he says that the whole book is symbolic in nature but except the rescure in the end. Through out the whole book Golding uses symbolic messages to state his point. He wants us to be careful of what could happen if we become savages. The fire could burn us up. The boys represent our society as a whole and the island represents the world and the smuldering flames will destroy us before we know it. The question is who will rescue the adults and his cruiser? Will the adults drop them off then keeping killing or will he keep killing then drop them off. You can't really blame the boys for being savages because that's one thing they are used to. E.L. Epstein says that the moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable. What he meant by this is that if you want to have a strong and successful tribe you must rely on the persons ethics and morals (Ralph) and not on the Political system that otstrisizes people for not conforming to the hunting ways(jack).
That's my blog
"The Devil is not present in any traditional religious sense; Golding's Beelzebub is the modern equivalent, the anarchic, amoral, driving force that Freudians call the Id, whose only function seems to be to insure the survival of the host in which it is embedded or embodied, which function it performs with tremendous and single-minded tenacity. Although it is possible to find other names for this force, the modern picture of the personality, whether drawn by theologians or psychoanalysts, inevitably includes this force or psychic stature as the fundamental principal of the Natural Man" (205).
In this expert I think it shows just exactly what Golding was trying to point out. He had seen the damage that was being done by man. This shows that E.L. Epstein was also closely connected the same way. Epstein is able to see things much like Golding. The fact that they both see that in the modern age the devil can be considered to be within. That it is also easier to blame someone or something for what is going on. The fact that even the adults in the book do not understand what the boys are doing, which is the only thing that they now how, is killing. This shows that no one likes to lay the blame at their own feet but at others. It is a fight of the fittest who will last when all that matter is survival.
"The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island."
This quote taken from the passage is very detailed and well thought out. Golding through out the novel goes into the depths of explaining how the children are not like adults, and how they act uncivilized. In reality this is not true as adults can be uncivilized if not more than children. Epstein points that out in this passage, by saying that the adults are enmeshed just as much by the evil in the world as children are. Golding tries to make the adult at the end of the book look civilized, but in reality he is no more civilized than the children, as he is off to war with other humans. This is the same thing the children are doing to Ralph.
After this occurs the most deeply symbolic incident int he book, the "interview" of Simon, an embryo mystic, with the head. The head seems to be saying, to Simon's heightened perceptions, that "everything was a bad business....The half-shut eyes were dim with the infinite cynicism of adult life." Simon fights with all his feeble powere against the message of the head, against the "ancient, inexcapable recognition," the recognitio of human capacities for evil and the superficial nautre of human moral systems. It is the knowledge of the end of innocence, for which Ralph is to weep at the close of the book.
I think epstein is right on in this passage. That the head is telling Simon that it doesn't matter what he does or says to any of the boys, becuase evil is all around. The other boys are gonna turn evil. This section tells us that things are only gonna get worse throughout the rest of the book. Simon is fighting to stay innocent and to have peace on the island. But of course it doesn't work.
"The "lord of the flies" is a translation of the Hebrew Ba'alzevuv (Beelzebub in Greek). It has been suggested that it was a mistranslation of a mistransliterated word which gave us this pungent and suggestive name for the Devil, a devil whose name suggests that he is devoted to decay, destruction, demoralization, hysteria and panic and who therefore fits in very well with Golding's theme." (page 205)
This means that the devil is inside of us all and i beilive that is what Golding is trying to convey to us when he has simon talk to the lord of the flies and he then relizes that there is a devil inside all of us. I beilive that Simon brought the peace and kind of a in a since a figure that is a religous man. I beilive Golding put the lord of the flies in his story to bring that feeling that everyone has that evil presence inside of them or maybe just a little devilish way. I think his point is to make us all ponder about what we do in every day life and that everyone needs to take a strong look at what life needs to be and not to unleash the devil inside of us all.
"The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable."
I think that this book has accomplished the task of bringing back the defects of society to their fullest. I agree with the above statements that the ethics and nature of individuals should be derived from themselves and not from a system that is assimulating their thoughts so that everyone will eventually be at the same state of mind. I believe that for a society to truley be functional every individual should be able to reason for themselves and come up with their own code of ethics. Because if everyone thinks the same then what happens on the island with the boys will be the outcome of all human kind eventually. Last, I think Mr. E.L. has achieved a tremendous amount of personal realization and has incalcuable insight to the human nature and its capabilities.
"The LORD OF THE FLIES is a translation of the Hebrew Ba'alzevuv (Beelzebub in Greek). It has been suggested that it was a mistranslation of a mistransliterated word which gave us this pungent and suggestive name for the Devil, a devil whose name suggests that he is devoted to decay, destruction, demoralization, hysteria and panic and who therefore fits in very well with Golding's theme." (page 205)
I think Golding captured the theme very well. He is saying that the "beast" is not a human or animal figure but it is inside of us. All of the boys thought there was a acutal beast on the island but little did they realize that is was actually inside of them. Simon was the only one who knew this and when he tried to tell the other boys there inner beast got the best of them and they killed him. I believe that Golding was trying to show us that there isnt a beast that we have to worry about but our inner beast that we should keep down and not let out. We have to look inside our everyday lifes and figure out what the beast is doing so we can correct it.
"The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island."
Everything in this book has some hidden meaning. I totally agree with that as you look at Simon being some sort of Christ figure, Piggy being a mom/ adult, and Jack being the devil. Those are just a few of all the examples. Anyways, Golding uses various techniques to show how the boys are uncivilized and not yet adults. Though they are British and from a military academy, they are like wild animals when there is no supervision. In a way Golding also shows that adults are no better than children in how they act in life. Golding tries to send out one final secret in the end when he uses a military officer coming to save the boys. The military officer looks all proper and civilized, but overall he is no different in the inside then the boys. This shows, when Golding has a war ship in the background.
"The Devil is not present in any traditional religious sense; Golding's Beelzebub is the modern equivalent, the anarchic, amoral, driving force that Freudians call the Id, whose only function seems to be to insure the survival of the host in which it is embedded or embodied, which function it performs with tremendous and single-minded tenacity."
I choose this passage because its saying how Jack is turning to the savage thats in us all, but in jack he is going barbaric, paint his face like a true savage person would and goes obsessed with hunting and can't stop until he gets the pig but he wants more and can't stop until he gets another one but its just the fact that jack wants to be the POWER of them all and to prove it to them he need to destroy all other things that are in his way. I think if the adults would not have shown up when they did Ralph would be dead and then jack and roger would start taking out everyone else untill its just them to left and then it would be a big fight with them and only one would come out, which i think would be roger but it would not be good for any of them.
I think that it is cool how he is the one answering “a publicity questionnaire from the American publishers of LORD OF THE FLIES”, and that he has to explain the book to them. E. L. Epstein says that this book is “extremely complex and beautifully woven symbolic web which becomes apparent as we follow through the book” and that LORD OF THE FLIES “is not, to say the least, a simple adventure story of boys on a desert island.”
Epstein tells the publishers that this book has a deeper value that a simple non-fiction book might contain. The book would definitely not be as interesting if you couldn’t dig into the meaning of the metaphors Golding uses do describe things, such as, “the scar” and “the creepers”. The reason this book is read in high school and college is because of the underlying meaning and Golding’s “‘attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature’”. I enjoy thinking whether that would happen if a bunch of classmates and I were put into the same situation. I think that after reading this novel that it would be less likely, I hope that we would all be able to work together. But sitting at home in the civilized world it is easy to imagine this possibility. Things are a completely different story when you are out of the civilized world, separated from society with no idea of when or if you’ll ever get back, and faced with survival. People are less likely to think things out logically and will instead act on instinct.
"The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable."(204)
I agree moral can only be done with ethical nature of the individual and not by any political system because no one would be where they are today without doing this. People cannot do what government or any political system do when must time government is corrupt and misleading. People are safer just look after their self and living the government behind. This country would have never been found without people that had moral in them self not the government because if that would of happen no one would have know that the government was wrong.
"The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable."(204)
In this passage once again Golding is trying to teach us a lesson. He uses war on a small scale to show all of us the problems with dictatorships. This book is Golding teaching us to keep and eye out on the people in power and telling us that we can not give these people too much power. In the end when Golding is talking about governments i think it is a message to all of us. By using free speech and the right to peaceably assemble we can stop any of these problems from occuring in our country today.
The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable
I find this passage very interesting and also true. Golding is explaining to the viewers what could happen if we all act like animals. He is displaying what could be nuclear warfare. The harsh doings of the children are the result of their ID...Golding is trying to show how one indvidual with a strong ID can create havoc in a society. He states that an ethical nature of one human being can take over a political system. This is evident in the novel Lord of the Flies. You would assume that the logical Super-egos would over come the nonsense that Jack has warped into their brains but like Golding said...one person can effect the society even if there is a strong political system or logic base
“…And the boys of the island are figures in a parable or fable which like all great parables or fables reveals to the reader an intimate, disquieting connection between the innocent, time-passing, story-telling aspect of its surface and the great, “dimly appreciated” depths of its interior.” (208)
- This writing of Epstein really stands out to me because I never thought of Lord of the Flies being a parable of a fable. According to Merriam-Webster Online a fable is a narration intended to enforce a useful truth. Golding did write a wonderful narration that enforced the truth that there are defects in society that are caused by the defects of human nature. My perception on this is: “if we ignore these defects major destructions will happen and our minds will become taken over and we will become savage.” Merriam-Webster Online stated that a parable is a short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle. Golding’s moral is the shape of a society depends on ethical nature of an individual not a political system. My perception on the moral of the story is: “in order to have a structured, well-managed society the people within the society must have a structured, well-managed, structured ethical background.”
(204) “The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable.”
-This theme that Golding has stated in E.L. Epstein’s essay is greatly represented by the fact that the boys become totally corrupt in the end because that’s human nature. The have their own man-hunt instead of a pig-hunt. Then the naval officer comes just in time to stop the man-hunt, but only to briefly interrupt his own to rescue these kids, then go back to his man-hunt of war. Golding is trying to tell that we are on our own road to destruction and that our morals have become totally twisted.
"...he has combined and synthesized all of the charateristically twentieth-century methods of analysis of the human being and human society and used this unified knowledge to comment on a "test situation."
Epstein tries synthesizing the thesis of Golding with his own test and thoughts. He shows how children can lose control and let their Id control all of their actions. Politics are a very volatile subject, the fact that one person can slip into power and shake the rest of the nation. To stop the "test", all people must use the rights granted to them in this country, those that give us our freedom, to prevent the travesties of a lost age from reoccuring. Awareness is what keeps the tragic events of the past from reoccuring.
Mr. Epstein is a smart man. He talks about all the symbolism in the novel. He talks about how the boys are going back to nature and how they are saved by adults but who is then going to save the adults from themselves. I don’t know if I agree with him on the subject of the sow being the mother figure and how them killing her has something to do with sexual desire but I suppose if you look into things to deeply then you’re bound to find some crazy things that make no sense.
“The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable.” Golding and Epstein both agree on the evils of human nature, and each individual’s contribution in a society. Every individual is “sinful” or “morally wrong or bad” in terms, but who sets those terms? Evil, although “morally wrong or bad” and “harmful” is an absolute perspective. Views on abortion or race may be evil to some but not for others (Roe vs. Wade,, Klu Klux Klan, Hilter, etc.). So, for a society to function or succeed, must we be accepting of “evil”? Regardless, conflict will continue to come, and from the most stubborn, wealthy, knowledgeable, influential peoples. But, our country grants those people (politicians, parents, coaches, bloggers, etc.) the right to speak up. Destined or not, it seems our rights and human nature will commit one giant suicide, because they refuse to marry and accept one another.
"The officer, having interrupted a man-hunt, prepares to take the children off the island in a cruiser which will presently be hunting its enemy in the same inplacable way. And who will rescue the adult and his cruiser?"
After reading this excerpt I understand why E. L. Epstein is such a well respected man in the literary community. He looks at the larger picture of things. The book breaks down the problems of the world and just scales them down to a smaller island. This whole book is full of lessons to all of its readers. It is telling us to keep a watchful eye out for what is going on in the world around us and that the real beast lies within human beings rather then some scary monster.
Quoting Golding:
"The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual... The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end ... who will rescue the adult and his cruiser?"
I think Golding nailed that trace perfectly. The Lord of the Flies succinctly shows that the problem with society today is nothing other than the problems with human nature. Even more important, he brings up the question of whether adulthood is any more civilized than the children's demeanor. I think that adulthood is a little more civilized than childhood, but it has its own idiosyncrasies. In many cases adults are no better than children - just look at President Bush and the "War on Iraq" and tell me you can't see the big bully in the sandbox trying to control everyone around him.
" Another feature of Golding's work is the superb use of symbolism, a symbolism that "works." The central symbol itself, the "lord of the flies," is, like any true symbol, much more than the sum of its parts; but some elements lation fo the Hebrew BA'alzevuv (Beelzebub in Greek). It ha sbeen suggested that it was a mistranslation of a mistansliteratedword which gave us this pungent and suggestive name for the Devil, a devil whose name suggests that he is devoted to decay, destruction, demoralization, hysteria, and panic and who therefore fits in very will with Goldind's theme.(205)"
I love this excerpt it give you the real mean behind the title. It does not just say a little thing about how the title is tied into the theme, it goes behind the mean of the who theme. I got a whole new understanding of the book and of Golding's idea. The explantion of Beezlebub and the Devil is the perfect thing that relates to the book. That the devil is decay and destruction and the other things that comes with that is excatly what goes on in Golding's book.
P.S. I am sorry it is late.
“The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island (204).”
-I believe the whole book is symbolic, including the rescue because throughout the book the symbolism in nature is that no matter where we grow up, or what we are taught, our own human nature is very basic instincts, kill or be killed, or good vs. evil. So with that, in the book the boys who are brought up in a very civil "British" manner are put on this island and within weeks they are fighting to kill one another and a not so much "civil" manner, but like beasts. And in the end when the boys almost run into the navy, you can feel all of their survival instincts go away, and they are kids again, but after leaving the island the navy goes to do exactly what the kids had been doing only ona much larger scale.
"The moral is that the shape of society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable." "The officer, having interrupted a man-hunt, prepares to take the children off the island in a cruiser which will presently be hunting its enemy in the same implacable way. And who will rescue the adult and his cruiser?"
I think that society must depend on a person being ethical and human and not rely on people being ethical. "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it" I think this quote from Men and Black relates a lot to LOTF and Golding would agree with Agent Kay from MIB. People depended on a political system when the Holocaust occurred and we all know how that turned out. So maybe when people gain power its just natural to use it and abuse it.
Sorry for the lateness. I worked Friday and Saturday and just remembered it this morning when i woke up. But have to get ready for work. HAVE A NICE DAY!
In goldings essay presented to us in the back of the book he persuades that we the people of this undaunting world should live by right and wrong over the way it is now with big business triumphing over everything, whether its politics or if it just happens to be school wide events money and big business have there tole on everything. What Golding presents is a society of the people where right and wrong are decided by the moral character of a society such as the one he had tried to show in the book Lord of The Flies. What there has been left to decide is would that make us better off or would that crumble under unexpected scrutenee.
"The theme of LORD OF THE FLIES is described by Golding as follows (in the same publicity questionnaire): 'The them is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable. The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island. The officer, having interrupted a man-hunt, prepares to take the children off the island in a cruiser which will presently be hunting its enemy in the same implacable way. And who will rescue the adult and his cruiser?'"
This excerpt points out how the island symbolizes society and how the rescue and the officer symbolizes what is happening in the world.
"The emergence of this concealed, basic wildness is the theme of the book; the struggle between Ralph, the representative of civilization with his parliaments and his brain trust (Piggy, the intellectual whose shattering spectacles mark the progressive decay of rational influence as the story progresses), and Jack, in whom the spark of wildness burns hotter and closer to the surface than in Ralph and who is the leader of the forces of anarchy on the island, is also, of course, the struggle in modern society between those same forces translated onto a worldwide scale."
Epstien makes a great point in this one. He states that Ralph is the symbol of intelligents and rationality and Jack is the id, the burning desire to follow your instinctive desires. It also makes the point that when piggy's glasses break, all hope is lost, and in fact, all hell breaks loose at this point.
I apologize for the late post.
He says, "The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual... The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end ... who will rescue the adult and his cruiser?"
-He and I think alot alike, which is why this thought of his was easy for me to relate to. He uses the book to link human and nature together, which is how the whole world was made by God. So by tracing back to the link of human and nature the book is once again meaningful to the bible and the Lord. He is also correct in saying the whole book is connected to nature except for the end. The book takes many turns and twists to create these characters that have come from a tight society and been thrown into nature. The book has details and stories of what the boys have done and become due to nature and survival. The end is a cut off of the adventure of human and nature and beinging them back to society. Sorry this is late.
"The theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society back to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable." (204)
I think Golding really hits the nail on the head with this statement. He is telling us that we must be careul of who we elect to lead our country in the future. Adults have matured since their younger years, but they still act childish every once in awhile. This relates to the book by saying if a person is kept in an uptight society for a long time, sooner or later they are going to revolt. The boys become very uncivilized by having a man-hunt. When the navel officer comes to rescue them, the boys kind of get a reality check. They begin to relize the bad things that have taken place and then they start to act more grown up. The boys could also be crying for the fact that they now have to return to a tightly controlled environment. Sorry this is late.
"Golding's Beelzebub is the modern equivalent, the anarchic, amoral, driving force that Freudians call the Id, whose only function seems to be to insure the survival of the host in which it is embedded or embodied, which function it performs with tremendous and single-minded tenacity. Although it is possible to find other names for this force, the modern picture of the personlaity, whether drawn by theologians or psychoanalysts, inevitably includes this force or psychic structure as the fundamental principle of the Natural Man."
I find this very interesting that Epstein brings this out. If you think about it he's saying we each have an Id inside all of us. We all have inside of us an evil seed that can grow and cause us to do terrible things. It's a matter of enviroment and morals that holds the world back from extreme chaos! What if the Id ruled the world? Murder, rape, stealing, mass graves, genocide, and many other terrible things would become common place. Nobody would think any different if you killed anybody as if you had given them flowers or something. Morals is what keeps our Ids in check and we get morals from society and where does society get their morals? It's almost like an endless circle just like in the book and what Epstein says. Everything is crazy on the island until the captain shows up and stops the man hunt just to put them on a ship to start another man hunt with the war going on. Who is going to save the Captain? This is the real question we need to ask ourselves.
"The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island. The officer, having interrupted a man-hunt, prepares to take the children off the island in a cruiser which will presently be hunting its enemy in the same implacable way. And who will rescure the adult and his cruiser?"
-Golding makes a good point. At the end of the book they are rescued by an adult, but what if there was no adults that could rescue them. It has a unrealistic ending because it tells you that a cruiser just showed up. How did they find the island? And even if they didnt get rescued, they would be faced with even more problems. Now that they are rescued, problems will still appear. Are adults going to always be there to help them?
"What is unique about the work of Golding is the way he has combined and synthesized all of the charateristically twentieth-century methods of analysis of the human being and human society and used this unified knowledge to comment on a "test situation." In this book, as in few of all schools, anthropologists, social psychologists and philosophical historians mobilized into an attack upon the central problem of modern thought: the nature of the human personality and the reflection of personality on society"
This book is testing the boys and seeing what they have learned from society. If they havent learned anything then only few will survive. It is a good test to see how far they have come and what they can do without adults. What they achieve on the island reflects how they live and how they have been brought up.
"The LORD OF THE FLIES is a translation of the Hebrew Ba'alzevuv (Beelzebub in Greek). It has been suggested that it was a mistranslation of a mistransliterated word which gave us this pungent and suggestive name for the Devil, a devil whose name suggests that he is devoted to decay, destruction, demoralization, hysteria and panic and who therefore fits in very well with Golding's theme."
This i think fits into the theme very well. Beelzebub suggests the devil and everything that means to destroy. They boys in this book fit into this very well. Some turn on each other and believe what they are doing is what they need to do to survivie. There was no beelzebub in this book, but among the boys, they created one,
"The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island. The officer, having interrupted a man-hunt, prepares to take the children off the island in a cruiser which will presently be hunting its enemy in the same implacable way. And who will rescure the adult and his cruiser?"
-I think that this is a good point he makes. In real life it seems like adults are always there to help us and I think Golding was trying to show that in the ending. But are adults always going to be there for us when we need help? I don't think they will becuase that's what the big transition is from us being seniors in high school to going to college and living on our own. Adults may still be there for somethings but not everything. Golding is trying to show us that by having the adults show up to rescue the kids.
"At the end of this fantastic scene Simon imagines he is looking into a vast mouth. 'There was blackness within, a blackness that spread....Simon was inside the mouth. He fell down and lost consciousness' This mouth, the symbol of ravenous, unreasoning and eternally insatiable nature..."
I think Simon is being sucked into Beelzebub which is feeding him things aren't true. He is trying to know what is right from wrong and the pig head is putting the wrong things into his head. He becomes so engulfed in what Beelzebub is telling him, he passes out from all the things happening in his head. I think Epstein knows what he is talking about and it's hard not to believe a lot of points he makes that can't be true about the book. He is proving points that Golding is making that we can be taken over by evil and not know what is happening to us.
"The whole book is symbolic in nature except the rescue in the end where adult life appears, dignified and capable, but in reality enmeshed in the same evil as the symbolic life of the children on the island. The officer, having interrupted a man-hunt, prepares to take the children off the island in a cruiser which will presently be hunting its enemy in the same implacable way. And who will rescure the adult and his cruiser?"
I thought that this section was one of the more interesting ones because Golding talks about societies morality and how it depends on our ethical and moral nature as human beings. Humans are not perfect creatures, we make mistakes and are responsible for many of our socities downfalls and sometimes destructions. The symbolism that is used is also impressive because it is not just random things that were thrown into the book, Golding uses everything and makes sure that everything has a deeper meaning behind it. It is ironic how the boys are having a man hunt of their own and the naval unit that comes to "save" them is in turn taking them along to be a part of their man hunt. I think that Epstein's ideas hit dead on to what Golding was trying to get accross in this novel.
"Another feature of Golding's work is the superb use of symbolism, a symbolism that "works." The central itself, the "lord of the flies," is, like any true symbol, much more than the sum of its parts; but some elements of it may be isolated. The "lord of the flies" is a translation of the Hebrew Ba'alzevuv (beelzebub in Greek). It has been suggested as a mistranslation of a mistransliterated word which gave us this pungent and suggestive name for the Devil, a devil whose name suggeststhat he is devoted to decay, destruction, demoralization, hysteria and panic and who therefore fits in very well with Golding's theme.”
This novel is full of symbolism. Jack is a good symbol of evil. Ralph symbolizes a father figure. Piggy symbolizes a motherly figure. Simon is a Christ-like figure. The mouth is the cave and the littluns think that a beast lives inside that cave and will eat anyone who goes inside it. Hence the cave being called the mouth. The scar is the dead end of the island which gets burned up toward the end of the novel. Castle rock symbolizes Jack’s fortress.
i think that the killing of the pig was not sexual but more of an sheding of skin so to speak like when they are killing the pig the are killing off the rest of their human traits and after the pig is dead and they put it on a steak then the have offically become savages.
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