Golding knew Freud's theories very well and incorporated them into his novel. Ralph represents the superego. Jack represents the id. The ego, then, is within the reader's mind. Find and copy text here from the novel that makes these connections between the characters and psychoanalysis. What part(s) show(s) that Ralph is acting like the superego of the collective mindset of the boys? What part(s) show(s) that Jack is acting like the id of the collective mindset of the boys? (One comment here from each of you is due February 14.)
91 comments:
ralph is the superego because he likes orderly fashion in whatever he does and considers the conch a reward for those who want to speak. the speaker gets to hold the conch and pass it to the next person who has a question, comment, concern, thought, detail, fact, or opinion on everything. he also feels a sense of guilt leaving piggy behind to take care of the children and when piggy wants to talk but jack keeps telling him to shut up.
jack more or less acts on impulse and does not think anything through. if he thinks things should be done he will do it without question and does not care about anyone elses feelings
Ralph is the superego... the concience... the voice of reason. He is one of only 3 advocates of keeping the fire going, and the only one to have the charisma and appearance to lead. He knows what is best for the tribe, even if it seems the less fun or satisfying option of the time...
Jack being the id can be summed up very quickly by the death chant he starts. "Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!" Jack is the primitive influence on the island. The beast inside of him has been let out and he resorts to primal instincts. To him, the fire doesn't mean rescue. To Jack, the fire means cooked food, it means heat, and it means warmth. Jack thinks only in the now, thinking nothing of the future or what actions will be the best in the long run. Ralph tries to think this way but is rejected...
An example showing that Jack is the id and Ralph is the superego is when they are talking about being rescued and making a fire. Ralph explains and goes through the possibilities of making a fire, using the conch to keep order, saying "...we can help them to find us. If a ship comes near the island they may not notice us. SO we must make smoke on top of the mountain. We must make a fire." After that everyone gets excited and Jack, "forgetting the conch" yells "Come on, let's go!" This says that Jack acts on impulse and Ralph likes order and structure.
you could easily state that Jake is the id because on page 91 he goes on to have this conversation with Ralph. "That's right favor Piggy as you always do."
"Jack"
Jacks voce sounded bitter mimicry.
"Jack! Jack!"
"the rules" Ralph shouts. "You're breaking the rules!"
Who cares?"
"Bollocks to the rules! We're strong we hunt! If theres a beast, well hunt it down! well close in and beat and beat!"
By this dragged on section that is addressed during there meeting of why Jack let the fire go out, You can see who is attempting to do good and which one doesnt care and can only think of hunting pigs. showing you of course the way these two represent id and superego.
ralph is the super ego because he thinks everything out before he does it. and he tries to make the decision that will have the best end result for the boys. Jack on the other hand does things when he wants to. he does what ever comes to his mind because he thinks it sounds like a good idea at the time. I think the fire is a perfect example of this. it is the first time the boys do what jack wants and it has less than favorable results. I think this might be a little foreshadowing to something worse that will possibly happen later in the book.
Ralph is the superego because he thinks of the future when he has an idear and it is usually in an orderly fashion. Jack is the id because he acts on his thoughts, when he wants to do something he is going to do it, like a little kid.
"They walked along, two continents of expericnce and feeling, unable to communicate.
'If i could only get a pig.'
'i'll come back and go on with the shelter'"(55).
This shows how Jack is acting like the id, or the unconscious, because all he wants to do is be a man and kill a pig. It also shows that Ralph is the superego because he knows they need to make a shelter to really be able to live on the island, to make it feel like home and for the basic need of shelter.
Ralph is superego because he thinks and trys to plan ahead. Jack on the other hand is id because he takes things as they come like one thing at a time.
Ralph could be considered the superego because he is the leader, he thinks out all his plans maticulously. although most of ralph's plans rarely end up working out is it usually not his fault but the other kids not wanting to do anything. Jack can be considered the ID because of the fact that everything he does opposes what Ralph would like to do. in the scene where mr. c was describeing how the two were like a mother and father fighting it shows that they have an opposition to each other. not only this but jack really does not care what ralph wants, he wants to do his own thing, the fire doesnt matter to him anymore, he seemingly doesnt want to be rescued, the only thing that matters now is killing and finding meat. sure ralph would love to eat meat but he wants progress first he wants the boys to live in shelter and be able to survive he is looking out for other people unlike jack who seems like he just wants meat...
Ralph, like the superego, is a symbol of the typical father figure by maintaining a sense of morality on the island and choosing what is best for the boys survival, not always what is the most fun or pleasureable for the group. Jack represents the id because he acts on impulses, demanding immediate satisfaction to his wants and needs. It is fitting that Jack is in charge of the hunters, this way he will be able to satisfy his id-driven desire for food.
Ralph can be seen as the "father or mother figure" because he is trying to get everyone to work together to finish the shelters and clean up their newly found habits. "We'll need those shelters then... We chose those rocks right along beyond the bathing pool as a lavatory. That was sensible too. The tide cleans the place up". (80) He is trying to create a home feeling on the island and create a sense of rules.
Jack is act like a wild boy in some parts of the story. He is starting to use paints to kill a pig and gets upset when ever Ralph confronts him on coming back empty handed. '"I cut the pig's throat," said Jack, proudly, and yet twitched as he said it.' (69) He becoming proud of the fact he is turning into a person that relies on nature and not a store. The primiative being is coming out of him.
"We ought to have more rules." Ralph is constantly trying to retain order, keep everyone in check, he wants to have things kind of similer to how they were at home. Hence the whole having to raise their hand when they would like to speak.
"I cut the pigs throat." Jack on the other hand would rather spend his whole day hunting and going after his animalistic needs. When everyone else was worried about buliding shelter he wanted to go out and hunt for meat. It's obvious that shelter is important and you can live w/out meat... but in a jungle you need shelter.
Jack, the id, has shown is lack of his superego. He seems to be the more 'childish' of the group. He doesnt think to much before he makes his decisions...when jack orders all the of the kids to retrieve the rotting wood..his carelessness or 'id' forgets to think more on the situation and creates a big fire...Ralph, the superego, is the father figure of the group. He helps maintain hte sense of morality in such ways as trying to accomplish basic needs rather than the not so important wants that jack wants.
Becky--You've shown precisely where the boys begin to diverge. It is like a metaphorical splitting of the collective unconscious of the boys. Brilliant!
Jack is the id because he likes to do whatever he wants. if something good comes to his mind at the time he does it without thinking about it. Ralph is the superego because he knows what they need to do to survive.
"Rescue? Yes, of course! All the same, I'd like to catch a pig first-" said jack Jack is going crazy because he has never been away from civilization for a long period of time, i think, he has only one goal in mind and it is to catch a pig.
"And i work all day with nothing but simon and you come back and dont even notice the huts" said Ralph. He is trying to be more civilized but he cant because he feels that he is doing all the real work around here. i think he wishes that someone more helpfull would help him instead of simon.
Diana--Right, the boys could survive on the fruit. Is Golding implying that all people should be vegetarians and "get along with" nature and the animals? If Golding were alive today, would he be frustrated by global warming (if global warming even exists)? Would he be frustrated by species extermination? Is there a way for people to thrive and for nature to thrive?
After a long, hot hunt, with no catch, Jack returns to the beach and asks Ralph if there is any water to drink. Ralph says there "ought to be some left" (50). Jack takes the rest of the meager amount of water and carelessly dumps it "over his chin and neck and chest." (50), but apparently he "needed that". (50) Jack is governed by his own pleasure principle...he doesn't care to think of anyone else wanting or needing the water. Ralph, however, is governed by the group's needs and immediately takes action towards those necessities. Ralph had an idea to build the huts on the beach, and he didn't waste time in construction. Ralph and Simon quickly began work on the huts, while Jack's group went hunting (and returned without any meat). Ralph wants the group, not only himself, to be resqued and brought back to civilization. Away from the island is safety, food, family, and comforts, and Ralph wants to return to it. So, he initated the smoke signals for help from any ships, etc. passing by. When Ralph mentions resque to Jack, Jack lost interest. In response to Ralph's mention, he says he'd "like to catch a pig first" (53).
Ralph is showing superego becuase he is thinking about the long term effects and not about the here and know. He wants whats best for all the boys like making the huts to keep them save from the elements of nature.Jis showing id because he is only thinkingabout the here and know. He really wants a pig and that is the only thing on his mind. He is relying on nature to supply his needs and not a store that he is use to getting his food.
""A fire! Make a fire." At once half of the boys were on their feet. Jack Clamored among them, the conch forgotten. Come on! Follow me!""(38).
Jack is driven to do what is best for him in order that he may get on the good side of the other boys. It is about him and not what the others want.
""There aren't any Grownups. We shall have to look after ourselves."..."And another thing. We can't have everybody talking at once. We'll have to have 'Hands up' like at school." He held the conch before his face and glanced round the mouth. “Then I'll give him the conch.""(33).
This shows that Ralph realizes that it is best for everyone to be heard, but in order to do this there must be some rule of who can talk. By using the conch it allows them to realize that it is the symbol of power. This gives the person with the conch the power to speak.
Jack is continuously jumping to do things really quickly. He never contemplates the consequences to his actions. In doing so he displays and wild, uncontrolled behavior. This is one of the reasons I can understand why he is considered the id in the novel. Ralph on the otherhand does his everything possible to consider what is best for the whole community. He is a selfless character. We on the otherhand are omnicient and know what is right and wrong. We may not always want the best to happen because we want to be continually entertained.
"Jack was bent double. He was down like a sprinter, his nose only a few inches from the humid earth. The tree trunks and the creepers that festooned them lost themselves in a reen dusk thirty feet aove him, and all about was the undergrowth. There was only the faintest indication of a trail her; a cracked twig and what might be the impression of one side of a hoof. He lowered his chin and stared at the traces as though he would force them to speak to him. Then dog-like, uncomfortably on all fours yet unheeding his discomfort, he stole forward five yards and stopped. Here was a was a loop of creeper with a tendril pendant from a node. The tendril was polished on the underside; pigs, passing through the loop, brushed it with their bristly hide" (48). This entire paragraph dimastrates how Jack is very much thinking on instint (id). Jack is pretty much intuned as a hunter, and is searching out his prey. He is being as steathly as a cheetah and lioness are when they hunt. He may not have gotten meat as he wanted; and clearly seems to act mostly primal when he is talking to Ralph who is more concerned on building some huts. Ralph wants the huts for safty and to ease the worries of the little ones. For some are still worried about the snake like creature (beastie) that the little one with the birthmark had everyone worried about. Thou Jack and Ralph both say there is not one. Reading thus far I will draw a conclusion that Jack will definitely revert back to a primal stage and act on almost pure instint.
Jack is the id because he never considers anything before he makes a decision. Ralph on the other hand is the superego because he thinks and considers everything before making a decision. The superego makes Ralph seems like a mother figure to the children because women usually consider more before they make an important decision. However, men tend to make decisions on impulse instead of logical thinking.
Ralph is a kid with dedication and hard working. He is the one who is trying to orgainize what takes place on the island. He always finishes a task before moving on to another.
Jack is a selfish person. He is in it for himself. He is jumpy to go do only what he wants to do. He wants to hunt but has so far failed to come home with a prize to share.
Ralph is the superego because he is the one that wants to make sure everyone has shelters and he's like the mother figure. He also wants to find a way to get off the island Jack doesn't really care about anthing else but getting meat so that makes him the ID.
Ralph is the superego because he tries to think things out before he takes action. He usually tries to find a way of accomplishing something that will benefit both him and the others. Jack is selfish and only cares about what he wants to do. He does't do anything that will help out the others. Unlike Ralph, Jack does only what comes to his mind.
Ralph is the superego. He is one of only 3 trying to keep the fire going. He knows what is best for the boys, but to the boys it seems the less fun option at the time...which lets Jack be the id.
Which is easily recognized by the chant he starts. "Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!" Jack is a huge influence on the island because of his thirst for blood and power instead of using their minds to stay alive. jack is a boy who relies on his instincts. the fire doesn't mean rescue in hsi mind. to him the fire means food and heat. What seperates ralph and jack is that ralph is thinking ahead at surviving and jack is thinking right now and not caring about the future.
Peace.
Ralph is the superego because he wants to make sure that everyone has shelter and acts a a sort of mother figure to all the boys on the island. jack is the id because he isnt worried at all about getting the shelters done all he wants to do is kill a pig for the meat.
"...When the meeting was over they'd work for five minutes, then wander off or go hunting."
Jack flushed.
"We want meat."
"Well, we haven't got any yet. And we want shelters. Besides, the rest of your hunters came back hours ago. They've been swimming."
-This passage shows that Piggy is concerned with the well being of everyone, not just himself. He works all day on building huts even though no one notices him and the hard work he puts in to the camp. While Piggy is slaving all day Ralph is only concerned with his own tastebuds and what he considers fun.
Piggy notices little things like the littluns waking up in the middle of night frightened because everything they knew has perished. They are forced to live and learn together, with no adult supervision. Piggy sees and realizes this, while once again Ralph hasn't noticed at all.
Jack is decidedly bloodthirsty. He cannot wait to spill, see, feel the blood of a pig.
Jack has stereotypical qualities of a "hothead" with a "coldheart"--red hair, icy blue eyes, short speech patterns. He has total control of the choir, his hunters, but wants more.
Jack is also a lot like a wolf in many sections, sniffing the ground and air, crawling on all fours, and being "one with nature."
Ralph at first seemed as if he didn't care about Piggy and his thoughts. After awhile it seems like he cares a little more because he apologizes for making him feel bad about himself. Jack likes to go out and explore new territory which is the whole island and he tends to do things on impulse. When he hunts he becomes one with nature and he really gets into it and tries to find the pig on impulse.
"'The best thing we can do is get ourselves rescued.' Jack had to think for a moment before he could remember what rescue was. 'Rescue? Yes, of course! All the same, I'd like to catch a pig first- ' He snatched up his spear and dashed it into the ground. The opaque, mad look came into his eyes again. Ralph looked at him critically through his tangle of fair hair." (53) This section shows how Jack(id) has sort of lost sight and is pretty much acting like a wild animal. He has forgotten all about being rescued and Ralph(superego) is becoming very frustrated with him. Jack is only concerned with hunting and getting the first big kill. Jack and Ralph are beginging to act like they are married.
Ralph is the super ego, or mother figure. He is more worried about the littluns being safe and haveing proper shelters. Jack is the id, or father figure because he only cares about himself and killing a pig. He doesnt even care if they get rescued or not, or if the littluns are safe. He is too caught up in killing a pig and getting blood, to think about anyone else.
Piggy represents the conscience or reason. Certain cultural factors work on us all the time, so that we follow societal rules.
Does society intentionally banish "outsiders," or those who are different/deficient, according to what society has deemed "good" and "normal"?
Is human nature inherently good?
In the book Golding relates Jack to the Id because time and time again Jack lets down Ralph and by not keepin his word. Jack promises Ralph to help build huts, but instead he goes off hunting, and never catches anything, half of his hunters go off swimmimng while Ralph is left building huts with Simon. Another time Jack's duty was to keep the fire going incase a ship comes, but once again he gets wrapped up in his hunting and takes the twins out to go kill a pig and lets the fire die for about two hours, and in that time a ship came and Ralph blames Jack because he failed in his duty to keep the fire going. Ralph is all about the rules and what needs to be done which is defined as the Superego, he doesn't allow of anyone to step out of line and he likes to call assemblies and have orders, while Jack, the ID likes to go out and hunt meat for him and get praise from everyone because he thinks that is all that needs to be done, he isn't concerned with being rescued just the basic needs of finding food.
"Don't you want to be rescued? All you can think about is pig, pig, pig!
But we want meat!
And I work all day with nothing but Simon and you come back and don't even notice the huts!
I was working too-
But you like it! shouted Ralph.You want to hunt!" Ralph acts as a care taker over the boys in the island. he is thinking that they are not going to get rescued but still having a fire in case. He wants to have houses and make sure that everyone is safe in a motherly way. While Jack is just worried about what's for dinner just like any man. They are very different and that shows but they still seem to be able to come to and understanding just like in a marrage.
"If you're hunting sometimes you catch yourself feeling as if-" He flushed suddenly. "There's nothing in it of course, Just a feeling, But you can feel as if you're not hunting, but-being hunted, as if something's behind you all the time in the jungle."
They were silent again" Simon intent, Ralph incredulous and faintly indignant. He sat up, rubbing on shoulder with a dirty hand.
"Only I know how they feel. See? that's all."
"The best thing we can do is get ourselves rescued."
"rescue? Yes, of course! All the Same, I'd like to catch a pig first-" pg. 53
Of course had to think first about being rescued. That is not his top priority like it is for Ralph. Ralph is now taking on the part of the superego and Jack the id. Jack is concerned about what he wants and what he thinks. Ralph is looking out for everyone and what would be best for them.
Ralph represents the superego because he is the one that knows the difference between right and wrong, he keeps order with the boys, maintains the rules, and keeps the boys working productivly.
"Been working for days. and Look!...They keep running off. You remember the meeting how everyone was going to work hard untill the shelters were finished?...
Jack represents the Id. Jack has subconsciously changed his views on life. He no longer is worried about being rescued. He focuses on surviving, and his priorities in life have changed.
"But I shall! Next time! I've got to get a barb on this spear! We wounded a pig and the spear fell out. If we could only make barbs-"
Ralph is the best example of the super-ego becuase he acts like the mother figure. Ralph looks out for everyone especially the little kids. He also stays at home and cleans and puts things together while Jack represents the id becuase he goes out and does things spontaneously without thinking about it first. Jack rarely is concerned about anyoneelse and just fullfills his own needs by hunting most of the time
Ralph super ego is making him out to be a mother figure that he is looking out for the boys and makeing sure that they get done what they should get done and cares for what they say.
jack has a id because he is more of a wanting man, he wants meat he wants kids to listen to him and he wants to lead. with all this things he does not care what the others do but more what they can do for him.
"The twins moved toward Jack and began to protest timidly about something. Jack waved them away. Shut up."(63) This quote shows that Jack only cares about himself. What Jack wants to do is kill a pig and so far he has failed. "And they keep running off. You remember the meeting? How everyone was going to work hard until the shelters were finished?" This quote is from Ralph to Jack. This shows that Ralph is trying to be organized and put their needs to survive before fun but all the other kids are wanting to go play.
Ralph is the superego, '"D'you see? All day I've been working with Simon. No one else. They're off bathing, or eating, or playing"'(50). Ralph is concerned with doing the right thing, the most important thing, building shelters to make a sort of "home" and for protection if a storm comes. Jack is the id, "He tried to convey the compulsion to track down and kill that was swallowing him up...'I though I might kill'"(51). Jack is blood thirsty. He wants to kill a pig, he wants to eat meat, he is only concerned about hunting. Jack doesn't even think about beigh rescued anymore, the only thing on his mind is to kill.
"..Don't you wnat to be rescued? All you can talk about is pig, pig, pig!"
"But we want meat!"
"And I work all day with nothing but Simon and you cmoe back and don't even notice the huts!"
"I was working too--"
This shows that Ralph is the superego since he cares about being rescued, building shelter, and keeping the fire going. He is like the mom figure in the book.
"You wouldn't care to help with the shelters, I suppose?"
"We want meat-"
"And we don't get it."
"But I shall! Next time! I've got to get a barb on this spear! We wounded a pig and the spear fell out. If we could only make barbs-"
"We need shelters."
Jack is the id because he just cares about himself and his hunting for meat when that is not one of the most important things to do on the island right now.
Ralph is the superego because he's the only one who is concerned about being rescued. The other kids are playing, bathing, and eating because there aren't any adults around to control them. The kids just think that being on the island is more of a vacation than a life or death situation. Ralph is concerned to keep the fire going in order to be rescued, but Jack is more worried about whether or not he'll be able to kill a pig. Jack is self-centered. He doesn't care about anyone but himself. He drinks all the water and doesn't leave any for the others. He takes his stick and "hunts" in the jungle all day, while Ralph is trying to help himself and the others by building huts.
"He tried to convey the compulsion to track down and kill that was swallowing him up. 'I went on. I thought, by myself-'
The madness came into his eyes again." (51) I think that this quote shows how Jack is the id in this story because he is only concerned about killing the pig because he wants meat. He isnt concerned about the rest of the group needing shelters.
"'You wouldn't care to help with the shelters, I suppose?'
'We want meat-'
'And we don't get it.'
Now the antagonism was audible."
(51)
I think that this is a good quote which represents Ralph as the superego figure in the novel. It shows that he is not like Jack in only caring about meat, but more maternal in wanting shelters and other things. The superego is something which is learned from parents or other figures. This is where Ralph gets the notion to worry about other basic material needs first.
Ralph is the superego of the novel. He was made the captain and he is parenting all the little kids and taking control of everything.
"Jack took up a coconut shell that brimmed with the fresh water from among a group that was arranged in the shade, and drank. The water splashed over his chin and neck and chest. He breathed noisily when he had finished. 'needed that'(50). This shows that Jack is not worried about supplies or conserving things they need for survival. All Jack cares about is doing what he thinks he need to do in order for him to continue to survive. Thus making him the id in Lord of the Flies. Ralph however takes over the role as the super ego. "The best thing we can do is get ourselves rescued." All Ralph cares about is making sure they get the resources and use them wisely and do whatever they can to get rescued.
Ralph being a superego kind of person is clearly shown when Jack comes back from hunting. they fight about things that should be done which brings out the true nature of each individual. Ralph being the one who is thinking about what needs to be done ex: huts being built, fresh water, watching the kids. Jack being the one who is more primal one who is more concerned with hunting getting meet, getting his basic needs like when he guzzles the water and wastes most of it. this shows that Ralph is superego and Jack is Id.
"I went on. I thought, by myself-"
The madness came into his eyes again.
"I thought I might kill."
"But you haven't yet."
His invitation might have passed as casual, were it not for the undertone.
"You wouldn't care to help with the shelters, I suppose?"
"We want meat-"
"And we don't get it."
Now the antagonism was audible.
"But I shall! Next time! I've got to get a barb on this spear! We wounded a pig and the spear fell out. If we could only make barbs-"
This statement is showing the ID of Jack. He was acting on his impulse and wanting to kill a pig for himself. He has a bloodthirsty ego that is tellinghim to go and kill, even though there are other tasks that need to be done on the island.
The SUPEREGO of Ralph is telling him to make huts and shelters for all of the children so they are protected from evertying. He is looking out for and caring for "his tribe" while Jack is out worrying about his own business.
Jack is the id, because he says, "Rescue? Yes, of course! All the same, I'd like to catch a pig first(53)." Jack only thinks about getting a pig and nothing else. They need a shelter and he won't help. He thinks they need meat, but in reality they don't. They can survive on fruit, and the chances of him actually getting a pig are unlikely. He could be spending his time with the fire or shelter.
Ralph is the superego, because he always wants order. He says,"We've got to have special people for looking after the fire. Any day there may be a ship out there and if we have a signal going they'll come and take us off. And another thing. We ought to have more rules. Where the conch is, that's a meeting. The same up here as down there(42)." Ralph is the person that is kind of the adult figure. He is the one that is keeping them organized and thinks like an adult and rationally.
"'We want meat.' 'Well, we haven't got any yet. And we want shelters. Besides, the rest of your hunters came back hours ago. they've been swimming.' 'I went on,' said Jack. 'I let them go. I had to go on. I-' He tried to convey the compulsion to track down and kill that was swallowing him up. 'I went on. I thought, by myself-' the madness came into his eyes again. 'I thought i might kill.'(51)" This passage from the book shows that jack, is dying to kill and get back at his fear of killing the pig the first time he saw one. He is thinking about his human nature to want to kill and not thinking rationally. Ralph has his head in the game and wants to be rescued and keep his "kin" safe from the elements. I think both are good ideas but ralph could really use some help on the shelters for now. Hunting can wait.
"We could steal up on one-paint our faces so they wouldn't see-perhaps surround them and then-"
Indignation took away Ralph's control.
"I was talking about smoke! Don't you want to be rescued? All you can talk about is pig, pig, pig!"
"But we want meat!"
"And I work all day with nothing but Simon and you come back and don't even notice the huts!(54)"
Jack in this section is just thinking about his own personal gain, not thinking about the long run in being rescued. Ralph just wants to be rescued and tries to stay on task but making smoke and huts. Ralph is taking charge and is represented as a parental figure.
In chapter 4, Jack comes back from hunting and is accused of not helping. He responses numerous times by saying, "We wan't meat," making him the more primitive character that goes with the ID side of human nature. As with Ralph, he replies by saying, "We want shelters." He is thinking about the good of the whole band of boys, trying to make places to sleep for when conditions are bad.
Jack seems to not want to give up at all on the topic of meat. "We want meat" Ralph then goes on to say "Well, we haven't got any yet. And we want shelters." Trying to change the subject, but Jack does not give up. on that same page jack continues to hint outward ly that they want meat, and will not take no for an answer (showing a clear id mindset). Ralph whom is the super-ego, is really trying to keep everyone in order. He often opposes what Jack has to say, espesially about the meat, and feels that they will be just fine living off of fruit and things they can find in the jungle.
Ralph is represented as the superego the more we get into the book. When Ralph says "The best thing we can do is get ourselves rescued." it shows that he is the one who is thinking about the best for everyone. Ralphs main concern is about the shelter and the children. He knows that they can survive off the fruit on the island. But Jack is obsessed with killing a pig. Jack even says "Rescue? yes, of course! all the same, i'd like to catch a pig first" showing that he prefers killing a pig with a sharp stick over getting rescued and going back to civilization.
The superego is part of you ego that contains parental and societal values. Ralph is acting like a mother to the group on the island. He is concerned about were they will sleep and how they will be rescued. The id is represented by Jack. His instincts tell him to survive and do whatever he needs in order to accomplish it. The only thing on his mind is hunting, he want meat. He is no longer thinking rationally. The ego, reader’s minds, can tell that they do have a chance at survival. If they could act rationally everything could work out. They have fruit and water to survive off of and resources to live. There is meat on the island so eventually they will eat that. There inter phyche is acting out because they have never been faced in this type of situation. They are very proper British boys, so everything is going to be new.
"I was talking about smoke! Don't you want to be rescued? All you can talk about is pig, pig, pig(54)!" Here Ralph is yelling at Jack for just caring about hunting. The priorities of each character is clearly seen here. Jack is all about the hunt. He wants to go explore and hunt, do fun things. Ralph is stuck back at the beach trying to make huts for the kids. Ralph is thinking long term. They don't need meat, they have been surviving fine on the fruit, but they do need shelter because it means security from the elements and security for the minds of the little kids on the island. Ralf is the superego, the good in the story, and Jack is the id, the inner desire. It is my prediction that a lot of problems will arise because of their conflics in the story.
Ralph is being superego when he thinks of the conch as a reward for those who want to talk and he does everything in his way of doing them.
Jack acts id becuase he acts on impulse. He is also very demanding on seeking satisfaction in what he does. Like when he wanted his choir to stand and perfectly.
Ralpa is the superego. He plans the stuff that goes on like building the huts. If he knew they wouldn't be staying there for long he wouldn't build them. He is also the organizer. He wants stuff done in an orderly mannered way. Jack is the id. He doesn't care about anything. He could care less if he has a hut to sleep is or even is involved with everyone.
"Two shelters were in position, but shaky. This one was a ruin.
"And they keep rinning off. You remember the meeting? How everyone was going to work hard until the shelters were finished?"
"Except me and my hunters"
This shows how ralph is the mom and jack is the dad. jack is also the id in this because he thinks just because he can hunt he is above the rules that he doesnt want to follow. while ralph is the superego cause he wants to help everyone by getting the shelters done and he will follow all the rules even though he can also hunt just like the hunters
The superego is the component that contains parental and societal values. Ralph is becoming a mother figure. His main concern is to make shelter for the boys and figure out how they will be rescued. Jack is the id, which includes primitive instincts and irrational urges. His only concern is to hunt and kill a pig. William Golding describes a madness in Jack's eyes that is the id. "They were bright blue, eyes that in this frustration seemed bolting and nearly mad" (48). Jack's instincts as a primitive being have taken over his ability to think rationally, to be concerned about the others, and to think long term instead of living in the moment. The readers, then, are the ego. The ego is the sense of reality and common sense. The reader realizes that one must adapt to their surroundings as it is the best way of survival, but it is more effective using superego than id.
"You wouldn't care to help with the shelters, I suppose?"
"We want meat-"...
"We need shelters." (51)
Ralph continuously tries to make sure that they are all prepared. He realizes that they might have to stay there for awhile and they will probably need shelters to protect them from the elements. Jack on the other hand, can only think about hunting. They could live off of the fruit and other natural things on the island but Jack has this inner need to get a pig. He has set this goal and now he has to prove to himself that he can get it.
Jack is the id because he only cares and thinks about himself instead of thinking and caring about other people. This is true because he drinks most of the water and says "Needed that"(50).
Ralph is the Superego since he thinks before he acts and does things step by step with everyone as a whole instead of doing it by himself.
Ralph is representing the superego because he is thinking rationally. He knows that they might not be rescued for a while so he is concerned with building huts. Jack on the other hand represents the id. He is only concerned with hunting pigs, even though they have no need for the pigs since they have fruit. Jack WANTS to hunt but does not NEED to. Hunting is Jacks excuse to have an adventure for fun on the island. Ralph and Jack fight like a married couply and Ralph is the feminine and Jack is the masculine.
"We want meat."
"Well we haven't got any yet. And we want shelters. Besides, the rest of your hunters came back hours ago. They've been swimming"
"I went on," said Jack. "i let them go. I had to go on. I-"
He tried to convey the compulsion to track down and kill that was swallowing him up."(51)
You can see in this set of dialouge that Ralph is clearly the super-ego by trying to do the logical thing and make shelter. Where as Jack on the other hand does not care and has been consumed by the need to kill, thus being the id. I compare this seen to the movie Madagascar where Alex the lion from new york becomes savage after being on Madagascar without food and resorts to trying to eat his best friend Marty who happens to be a zebra.
"Rescue? Yes, of course! All the same, I'd like to catch a pig first-" He snatched up his spear and dashed it into the ground. The opaque, mad look came into his eyes again. Ralph looked at him critically through his tangle of fair hair. I think Ralph is getting mad because he is spending time building huts, and Jack just wants to kill a pig. Jack just wants to get rescued and Jack has other things in mind first. I think this shows the superego from Ralph and the Id from Jack. They could just live off the fruit in the jungle but Jack wants to kill a pig, instead of building huts for shelter.
"'I thought you saw a ship'"
"'We could steal up on one- paint our faces so they wouldn't see- perhaps surround then and then-'"
"Indignation took Ralph's control."
"'I was talking about smoke! Dont you want to be rescued? All you can talk about is pig, pig, pig!'"
"'But we want meat!'"
Ralph thinks about the future and about being rescued and Jack is thinking about all the things they have to do now to be able to survive.
Ralph is the superego of the group. He is the boy who insists on keeping the fire going. He turns into the "father" of the group and starts to look after himself and the boys. I think he has changed a lot since the beginning of the book, because at first Ralph was all about having fun and taking advantage of the fact that there were no adults on the island. Piggy was the one who wanted things to be in order and under control. Over time, Ralph realizes that they are alone and responsibility needs to be taken. He changes from an id character to a superego character when reality hits. Jack takes Ralph's place as the id. He does as he pleases because he feels he is his own leader and doesn't need to listen to anybody or do as he's told.
"Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!" Jack is tuning out reality and he is only concerned with his wants and needs on the island. To him, the fire signifies the food he will soon get and the heat to keep him warm and comfortable. The last thing he thinks about is being rescued. Ralph thinks ahead and is more responsible and careful (superego) while Jack is carefree and living his life on this dangerous island (id).
Ralph is like the super ego because he thinks through everything before acting on it, and he tries to make the decision that will have the best end result not just for himself but for the other kids.
Jack on the other hand is the Inner Desire because Jack on the other hand does things on Impulse not thinking things through. The fire is a perfect example of this. it is the first time the boys do what jack wants and it has less than favorable results.
ralph is the superego because he starts acting like a father watching out for the others and their needs. he wants to keep the fire going and he also is thinking about how to get rescued. jack represents id because he is letting his instincts take over and controll his thoughts. all he wants to do is kill and he doesn't think about being rescued.
"I went on. I thought, by myself-"
The madness came into his eyes again.
"I thought I might kill."
"But you didn't."
"I thought I might."
Some hidden passion vibrated in Ralph's voice.
"But you haven't yet."
His invitatoin might have passed as casual, were it not for the undertone.
"You wouldn't care to help with the shelters, I suppose?"
"We want meat-"
"And we don't get it."
Now the antagonism was audible.
"But I shall! Next time! I've got to get a barb on this spear! We wounded a pig and the spear fell out. If we could only make barbs-"
"We need shelters (51)."
i think that this passage clearly defines ralph as the superego and jack as the id. at this point, ralph's main focus is on the shelters that need to be built. with their construction they will be safe from rain and the younger kids will feel more comfortable, not having to worry about the beasties. jack clearly only cares about meat. i think that jack feels he needs to kill a pig in order to prove himself a man. i think that he also feels that once he gets his first kill, more of the boys will look to him as a leader. jack does not see the importance of trying to escape the island. he only sees the future directly in front of him, the one that would not really matter if they were ever rescued.
Ralph is definitely the SUPEREGO of the group because he has turned into a sort of "father figure". Jack is the ID. He is sort of tuning everyone else out and is only trying to fulfill his own needs while on the island. He just wants to kill a pig. For himself. He doesn't care if Ralph needs help building the huts. He just wants to kill a pig because he didn't have enough guts to do it on the mountain on the boys' first day on the island. In Chapter Three, Huts on the Beach, Jack and Ralph get into a sort of argument. Jack thinks it is necessary to go hunting and Ralph thinks it is necessary to build the huts. Yes, everyone wants meat, but Ralph believes that they need a place for the "littluns" to call 'home', so they aren't as scared as they always seem to be.
Jack leapt to his feet and spoke very quickly.
"That's how you can feel in the forest. Of course there's nothing in it. Only--only--"
He took a few steps toward the beach, then came back. "Only I know how they feel. See? That's all."
"The best thing we can do is get ourselves rescued."
Jack had to think for a moment before he could remember what rescue was.
"Rescue? Yes, of course! All the same, I'd like to catch a pig first--" He snatched up his spear and dashed it into the groud. The opaque, mad look came into his eyes again. Ralph looked at him critically through his tangle of fair hair.
I kind of believe that maybe Jack is going a little crazy and that Ralph is starting to feel the same way about him.
Sure, it feels better to guzzle water, just like it feels good to eat nine pieces of pizza. That's our id working--it's taken over the superego in those moments of gluttony. The id is what makes dieting difficult.
"They walked alone, two continents of experience and feeling, unable to communicate.
'If I could only get a pig!'
'I'll come back and go on with the shelter.'"(p.55)
In this segment of LOTF Jack acts as the Id by caring only to satisfy his desire to take down a pig. They would like meat, yes, but they will be fine with fruit for the time being, and shelters are more important.
Ralph cares for the more immediate needs of the children and concerns himself with the completion of the huts.
Jack and Ralph are the ideal foils of character. I believe that Jack acts more off of his instinct and Ralph uses logic to see what really should be done. Id is an immediate action, and Superego is more logical and thought out. This is why one usually turns out badly while the other ends up good.
I believe for the most part that Jack is the id and Ralph is the superego. Ralph so far in the novel appears to be the mother figure towards the boys, and Jack appears to be the father figure. The reason why I say that Jack is more of an id is when all he wants to do is hunt, to fit his hunger, and doesnt care about makeing a suitable shelter. "We want meat"(51). Ralph appears to be the superego because he knows that they can survive off of fruits and berries and building a shelter would be the wisest decision over hunting. "We need shelters" (51).
Ralph is definitely the superego in this book. He is constantly making rules and trying to keep the boys under control, he shows this when he says "There aren't any grownups. We shall have to look after ourselves... And another thing. We can't have everybody talking at once.". That shows us that Ralph is much more worried about keeping peace and order, then he is about staying alive. Jack on the other hand is strictly worried about food. In particular his want for meat. Everything he used to know is out the door and he is relying on his primal instincts. This obviously makes him the id.
Toni--It is reasonable to say Ralph has turned into a "father figure." However, I maintain he has turned into a "mother figure," preparing huts, planning things out for the long term, taking care of the children, maintaining the fire. I think Golding is attacking the male members of society in this novel, saying that with men in charge, things become...you'll see.
Do we even have primal instincts? Aren't we people , not animals? We don't have any "beast" within, do we?
There are many parts that show the sugerego of Ralph and the id of Jack. Ralph shows that he's the superego because he take order and control of everyone.
"Ralph smiled and held up the conch for silence.
'Listen, everybody. I've got to have time to think things out. I can't decide what to do straight away. So we've got to decide if this is an island. Everybody must stay round here and wait and not go away. Three of us-if we take more we'd get all mixed, and lose each other-three of us will go on an expedition and find out. I'll go, and Jack, and, and...'"
He give everyone assuence that they might not be on an island. Tells them to stay put till he can decide what to do. Thats what makes him the sugerego.
Jack is the id because he lets reality slip away and falls into the fantasy of the island.
"Jack planned his new face. He made one check and one eye-socket white, then rubbed red over the other half of his face and slashed a black bar of charcoal across from right ear to left jaw. He looked in the pool for his reflection, but his breathing troubled the mirror."
"...He looked in astonishment, no longer at himself but at an awesome stranger. He spilt the water and leapt to his feet, laughing excitedly. Beside the pool his sinewy body held up a mask that drew their eyes and appalled them. He began to dance and his laughter became a bloodthirsty snarling."
So as you can see he has become something unkown to the boy's. Jack has turned away from reality and taken on a new life.
Ralph makes sure everyone is doing their job. He makes sure that everyone knows what they are doing. He tries to to watch over everyone. Without Ralph they probably wouldn't survive. All Jack seems to care about is killing a pig. He doesn't care what the other kids are doing. He doesn't really seem interested in getting rescued. He really only seems to care about himself. "Jack took up a coconut shell that brimmed with fresh water from among a group that was arranged in the shade, and drank. The water splashed over his chin and neck and chest. He breathed noisily when he had finished" pg 50. He doesn't care that he is wasting water.
chaotic? disorganized? hectic? messy?
-Ralph withdrew his atttention from the shelter and realized Jack with a start.
"Oh, hullo. Water? there by the tree. Ought to be some left."
Jack took up a coconut shell that brimmed with fresh water fro among a group that was arranged in the shade, and drank. The water splashed over his chin and neck and chest. He breathed noisly when he had finished.
"Needed that." Pg.50-
First, this shows that Jack is an inconsiderate person and doesnt care a bit about anyone else. Jack is obviously the id, he doesnt care that he wasted the water he splashed all over the place He just thinks about himself. Also, he is quite selfish in just thinking about how he wants to kill a pig. This is nice of him in a way because he wants to feed people, I dont think he cares much about feeding the others he probably just wants to have meat for himself.
Ralph on the other hand is the superego, he is set on providing for the others, he wants to have shelter for the rest of them. He also seems caring in a way that he doesn't seem to get upset when Jack wastes all that water. I think taht with out Ralph there would be alot of trouble through out the group.
Ralph is known as the super-ego because right away he takes the lead, he takes charge. "I'm cheif then." He is voted in as chief with no question, he looks after the boys. Jack is obviously the ego, he is all emotional and nuts. He also insists on being in charge therefore he quarrels alot with Ralph. "I ought to be chief," he says instantly to project that he wants to be in charge. I thought that Piggy could be the id because he is always mediating between Jack and Ralph. There isnt a specific quote that I can find that shows that Piggy mediates but I just got the vibe that he was parent like with two fighting kids he had to keep apart.
Ralph keeps the order between everyone in the group. He makes sure things are getting done that need to get done and is making sure everyone gets what they need. Where Jack is only worried about himself and his satifaction. "I was talking about smoke! Don't you want to be rescued? All you can talk about is pig, pig, pig!"(Ralph) "But we want meat!"(Jack) (54) At this point ralph is taking care of busniess and planning for the future. He makes sure things like it making it more likely that they will get rescuded happen. He is planning things out and it controlled by the superego. But Jack on the other had is only worried about the now of what is going on. He is triggered by his insctincts like the id is.
clearly i must have been distracted in class--I meant to say that Ralph is the one who cares about the well being of everyone while Jack is concerned with the meat...
The bare fact that Ralph was able to rally the boys together and get them to concentrate on working together shows that he is like the superego. He cannot force the boys to do jobs, but he can convince or persuade them and sometimes fails to do so.
Jack is very much an id because he simply does not care about order and civility and is infatuated with hunting and animalistic survival. When Jack tells the boys to go hunting, the start going until Ralph tells them to go do something else, but in the end Jack wins over and the boys listen to him.
Do we blame Jack, or do we blame his role models back home? His role models are his military parents and other adults who cannot get along and who start war.
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