I believe that Goldng's thesis communicated through this novel is to stay away from leaders like jack or hitler. I also think it is to avoid people with too much power. Power can screw with your head..like it did to golum in the movies lord of the rings. I also think he is sending hte message to let your Superego rule your ID...
I really like and dislike what Leon Levitt says is the thesis of this novel: that it is not an evil within us that makes us do terrible things, it is the way our Western society is structured that makes us violently competitive, totally tribal, cruelly judgmental, and potentially downright wicked. This is sad to me, that we've created ways to be bad to each other. Our culture is supposed to welcome all and work together for the common good. Golding is a rather pessimistic, critical, skeptical. He says that it is not an inherent evil that makes us create and use nuclear weapons; it is the way we created our culture! Whoa.
I believe that Golding is trying to say that if you give someone to much power with out having any restrictions on them things can get out of hand extremely quickly. Golding shows this trough Jack, he is given alot of power from ralph and the other boys. He thinks that he is very powerful because he gets the food for the boys. I think that Jack getting the food for them is a good idea but he should have been monitored more by all of the boys. Overall I think that the boys should have not elected a certain one or two people to lead they should have done it like our government does it. They should have made it so not any one person could have to much power.
I believe that the main point around the whole book is to better understand how surroundings can affect the manner of a person. In "Lord of the Flies" Golding makes the reader extremely involved with what's going on on the island. He makes sure that you know exactly what he is trying to describe. In order to make it even more intensified he gradually shows how the characters are evolving, he does not just go from one thing to the next with no connection. The boys start out as well-mannered British citizens and become the more extreme savage creatures, all from being exposed to a situation that was an unexpected opposite that they did not know how to handle it. Being young boys, they have yet to see enough of the world to understand the proper procedure to follow in these circumstances. It also does not help the fact that they were brought up slightly helpless, expecting someone else to do everything for them (at least that is how they come across being from a high-class prep school).
Golding's thesis "All men, no matter how civilized, will return to their barbaric roots when put in a primitive setting." I think that he is trying to say that inside all of us, is a beast. weather we realize it or not. By using british boys, a society that is thought to very civilized, he is showing that all people would turn savage if put on an island. I think he is trying to show us that we a re living like savages and need to be saved somehow, like the boys in the book. He believes that a nuclear war is eminate. If you ask golding he would say eisenhower is just as bad as hitler or stalin.
I think that Golding wanted to let the world know that if we turn into savages the world will fall to pieces. We need some order in the world like Piggy and Ralph wanted. Without any order on the earth we would be involved a nuclear war. Being responsible and keeping order is what keeps America strong and powerful. People like Hitler, Sadaam, Stalin, or Pol Pot are savages like Jack's tribe. They kill innocent people because they turn into barbarians through some odd stage in there life. Savages ruin the good responsible order in the rest of the world and reck some human life.
William Golding's thesis is that he does not want events such as the Holocaust to every happen again. He works this into the novel The Lord of the Flies by showing what problems and how chaotic things become when one person becomes the leader of the group. When Hitler came into rein he was able to convince the Germans that Jewish people were to blame for all of the promblems in Germany at this time. In the novel Jack slowly takes over the other boys' minds and gets them to do this that they would probably not do if the had stayed under the leardership of Ralph. The boys that followed Jack and those that followed Hilter basically became savage people. Their minds were taken over by their leaders and started to only do what they were told rather then think for themselves. Tha main message that we are suppose to consider is: when a group of people are left stranded alone are they able to live life close to normal or will their lives only become chaotic and possible not even be able to survive. As Golding has wrote about in his novel he obviously thinks that humans are unable to live close to normal when left stranded on an island to fend for themselves.
i think that the main point of the book is to get the message through to people that we have to be careful of what kind of leaders we choose to follow. That people need to take a step back sometimes and really consider what is going on. I also think that he is pointing out that even children know evil, it is human nature, but that there are ways to solve things with out killing people or acting like children.
I think that Golding was tring to say how life is very fagile. You should never give up. Even if all hope is gone you should keep on tring your hardest. You should never make fun of the people that have problems with there life because they are people to and it can hurt you in the end. I think the main message is that you should not rely on yourself to do stuff you should do it in a group so wont go crazy all by yourself.
I think that 1dellmana said it very well, that inside all of us there is a beast, or a Hitler (hopefully not as extreme), or a Jack. No matter who you are or where you come from, you will always want some kind of power in some kind of situation, and Golding makes a good point in showing us what can happen if that power goes to the wrong person or is used for the wrong reasons or how that power is obtained.
I believe Golding's thesis is an apocalyptic theory. In his knowledge of the fundamentals of man and observing the patterns of modern culture/world history, he made a curious prediction on the future of our culture/world. He was once a soldier involved with the nuclear war and all the hate and destruction...this must have appalled and terrified Golding, because he was compelled to write this novel. So, he 1.) implanted his fears in this novel to sprout awareness for the contagious disease of war,hate, and separation and 2.) slipped in his (unfortunately accurate, I'd say) prediction for us all in the end. He warns civilization to "knock it off" through this novel. But, whether Golding's attitude is perceived as pessimistic and dark or exposed and requiring much energy, all of mankind MUST react to this and be proactive for some sort of rescue. Other wise, we'll set the whole earth ablaze and send ourselves to the next fiery home...where are we to go? What are we going to do about that?
Goldings theme for this novel is to convey a message about the holocaust. Golding uses Jack to convey Hitler, becuause when Hitler started out he wasnt as violent and unhumane, Jack starts out civilized and the beast gets to him and he becomes savage. He starts trying to murder the boys to gain more power. Golding uses the setting and the boys to convey the events of the holocaust. I have researched the holocaust many times and it is one of the worse tragedies in history. Golding is brilliant to be able to use a story about a bunch of boys in the jungle, he turns it into a message on how the holocaust should never be repeated. I totally agree with him on this and I thought it was genious to think up a thesis like that.
I agree with mr dieren. America is strong and powerful. Some people say we "police" too much but i think the world needs it. With out some sort of dignitary above you it would be complete chaos. I belive that is how all of the large countries keep not only the smaller countries in check, but themselves also. also we are all truly savage inside. This is shown in goldings novel. This is something that all people will realize at sometime or another.
I am agreeing completely with liz Wright, she really brought a good point about how Golding must have been "appalled and terrified" by Hitler. It was really good analysis and that hadnt seeped into my mind until now. What she wrote was very intelligent and I agree with what she had stated.
I feel Leah is right on with the message Golding is trying to get aross to his readers. Her first sentence is very good because it shows how people will change if the Environment foces you to. She all so says Golding has connection to every thing in this book. That is so true because he Explains a topic very well then he uses that to go onto the next topic. The boys are some what helpless because they have looked up to there parents like leah says and they have to learn to Survive with out them.
i agree with mathis on this one, we have so much to live for as people and not nearly enough time, golding tries to tell us like mathis said that life is fragile and we need to not make fun of people with anything that makes them different from ourselves, as people we like mathis said need to fight for what we believe in and keep trying if it means a lot to us.
I agree with ms. bly. The people of the world need to learn how to pick their leaders and be educated to be able to vote for a certain person. Plus, we need to act like humans not like animals.
I believe that Golding has several points to his message during the reading of The lord of the Flies. He shows how someone with too much power can destroy things in several ways. Jack was a lession of this. He also shows how you have to use your resourses wisely. When jack broke Piggys glasses, he was wasting an important resourse they had. This book also symoblizes how people are not what they are expected to be. These boys are suppost to be proper british boys. Thier actions prove that wrong. They do un cristian like things to people who are the most important. This book has alot to offer, if you take the time to read it carefully.
I agree with Denise. Goldings message to everyone is that you dont need just one leader. You can have several and still work things out. Being stranded was hard for these kids that were not used to having to make their own decisions. They were used to having everything laid out for them and have a adult structure always there. Now they are left to fend for themselves. They think they need a leader when in reality, they just need to work together to get rescued.
I agree with laycock, i also agree that Golding was trying to prove the point that just because a ruler may have "power" you do not have to follow them. Although there may be some draw backs to going against the one in power it would be worth it in the long run. Jack was in power, he killed the brains and the orginaztion of the group. He felt like he was losing power and he got rid of them. Hitler killed the inferior race, and Jack killed the people he thought were inferior to him. Having "power" over a lot of people is a very potent thing, and when put into the wrong hands it can be taken advantage of, and used in horrible ways.
I think that Golding's message is that life is fragile, and that you have to be careful with who you look up to. The message in Lord of the Flies says that Golding doesn't want to see the world become chaos. It took Jack how long to become crazy for pig's blood? A couple of days maybe. The world needs order otherwise we'll become savages just like Jack. All Ralph and Piggy were trying to do was to have a chance to be rescued, and Jack didn't seem to care.
I think Golding made his point very clear throughout the novel. His intentions were to make us consider what we are really like as people inside. It is obvious that he thinks we are all barbarians and if need be we will go from being a very civilized people to a crazy inhumane civilization. Military school boys from Britain were the perfect thing for him to use in order to get his point across that we are all like this. School boys are used to the scheduling and routine of everyday along with being told what to do; we would probably considering being about as civilized as you can be. However when they are pulled away from that they change and follow their instincts instead of what they have been taught. I think Golding acomplished exactly what he wanted to by this book, getting people to think and wonder, are we really that civilized or good or are we barbaric and evil?
From the begining the book has been about people trying to control the situation that they are in. The boys get to this island because people want to control whether or not they are "bombed" or not. They are trying to save these boys but really they could be harming them. The book shows people wanting to be heard and listened to and really lead a group. There are struggles for power. This book was about domanice and fear. half of the book is wrote just about the "beast" and trying to control the surroundings.
I think Golding is trying to tell us that if we become to self centered and listen to our ID like Jack, we will all become corrupt just like the island did. The boys thought it was a good island but as the days went by they had fear of a beast, and being hunted. And Jack took to much power and listend to his ID, which continued with the corruption. This is just how it goes with Hitler and all the other communist leaders, they have too much power. I kinda interperut Jack as the communist countries, and Ralph as the U.S. because he tries to help, but then it becomes useless and he jsut says, let them be, just like the U.S. did during the War.
Golding's thesis is that everyone has good and evil in them (superego and id), some just listen more to their evil and let it take control. Humans are unique in that they know right from wrong, but they don't always choose the right thing. Your conscience controls you, but overtime, some people lose their conscience. The evil dictators and rulers of the world have no compassion, pity, or mercy for others. Something in their life made them lose their conscience and follow through with their id. They become inhuman. Like Hitler, killing over 6 million jews just because he didn't like them. I think that Golding is a very good writer who makes you think and consider many different aspects of life and who really want you to question the superego, ego, and id.
I think Golding's thesis is one of which he thinks there are many things we fear in life and some of those we should overcome. There are so many things when we were young that we were afraid of. Especially, the boogey man under our bed or in our closet. We need to overcome those fears and be able to love what we can no longer fear. There are people who could take over our country and we would fear them because we would not want to be killed or tortured because of their power and intent to change our country. Golding, I think has gone through the fear of nuclear attacks. It has brought him to writing this book and showing the world the fear we can imagine.
I agree with Mr. Dellman and Mr. Dieren. Without some sort of order in our lives there would be chaos. If we dont keep the next generations of Hitlers and Stalins in order they can ruin the world. Especially since most of the world has nukes now. I know Dieren is afraid of that. Golding did a great job of getting his pint accross that if we lose order and turn into savages, we will resort to barbaian behavior. Like Jack and his tribe. They were 12 years old and some even younger and they were killing people without remorse. Thats just unheard of.
I think that Golding is trying to say that with out a conscience people will do terrible things. People that are not civilized will not have any structure. With out structure people won't know what is concidered morally right or wrong. If they don't know what is right or wrong they will do what they want no matter how bad it is. People that rule by making people scared of what they can do to you if you don't conform to their way are the leader that have killed the most people in the world. People that kill so many people are ruled by their id and not their superego. I think that Jack would be like Hitler and Roger is like the German army that does all the killing.
I agree with laycocka. Too much power can posess your mind, just like in Lord of the Rings. That Golem character killed his best friend just to hold the ring. And just like in Spider-man "great power comes great responsibility". peter parker thinks that just because he has superpowers means he can do anything, but he later learns that it's harder than he thinks.
The main message Golding was trying to send to us I think is to not become a savage and stay sane. The book is a prime example of what can happen if we dont keep power in check. We also need rational people like Piggy and Ralph to keep us going in the right direction. But if we dont stay sane and become like Roger and Jack we could all die. Also we could all burn up in ashes and burn to a crisp. We if we dont have order in our lives we could turn out like Hitler and there could be mass murderers in the world. So all we need to do is stay insane and keep an eye over those "Jacks" and make sure they dont turn into savages.
I think that the message is that if you let someone have too much power they are going to abuse it. We read that in most books. We grew up knowing that having too much power could mean that you would become evil. In most childrens book the evil doer is the one with the most power and by the end of the book the evil doer tends to lose. We learn at a young age that you don't need power to be heard. In Lord of the Flies, it seems as if you need to have power to be heard. Exspecially at their meetings, when Piggy is trying to speak.
In some ways i view this novel as a memoir of the holocaust. Other memoirs of the holocaust, such as the Diary of Anne Frank, are taught primarily in today's schools so that we can teach the youth on how to not act. It can be used as a prequisite warning on what will happen if a Hitler-figure comes into power again. They want to prevent another Holocaust, so they want to teach us about it. Although Golding's novel may not be related to his own personal experiences like Anne Frank, we still learn from it. This may be a reason why we read this novel in school. I believe that his thesis in this novel would be that without proper civilization, man would return back to primitive nature. I also think that a main message he is trying to portray in his novel is too be wary of what you do. The world could end in disaster with a horrible leader in command if the people are all subjective to what they think is right, or forced to believe something.
I believe that Golding wants the readers to know how power can cause people to become corrupt. Once a person has power they seem to use it to their advantage. A person with power can easily become corrupt if there isn't a system of checks and balances. Our government has a system of checks and balances which prevents one branch of our government from having to much power. Without checks and balances it would only be a matter of time before our government would became corrupt. The lack of checks and balances leads to the downfall on the island. Jack is able to control the boys because there is no one to check his actions. This is why the island is more like a dictatorship and less like a democracy.
i think Golding's message to us through his book is about power. We need to watch who has the power and make sure we're not following like sheep. We need to be independent because who's watching out for us? There is nobody responsible for us but ourselves. just like on the island they were responsible for themselves and everybody left the good leader A.K.A. Ralph and went to the dominant power hungry leader. Who ends up destroying the island. just like if we find a power hungry leader for the world he could destroy it. in my mind Golding is putting the island as the world. And he is putting Jack and Ralph as our presidents and dictators, and the funny thing about that is he makes them kids or he symoblizes our leaders as kids. But also the bigguns are symbols of countrys or other people in power who have a choice about what they do and choose to follow and the littluns are symbols of the people who elect their leaders but can be left out by their countries and leaders and be casualties of war.
I would have to agree with tlais that if there are no restrictions on power then things will get out of hand very quickly. In the story Jack has no restrictions on his power so he becomes corrupt very quickly. If there were some restrictions then the boys would have been able to last a lot longer.
I believe that Golding's message is to determine whether or not some sort of beast is in factlocated in each and every one of us. When put in a difficult situation, it did not take long for Jack to turn to dictatorship. Jack had always been a fine boy until they were on the island. We need to question ourselves and have a conscience(Piggy) and not let it fade away(or die). It is vital that we do not let our ids take over. We need to make sure we consciously make the right decisions and not fall to communism when put in the situation. Golding did a good job in the book...it really makes a person question if there is a beast in each one of us, or if provoked, if we COULD turn into beast like animals.
How much control is good/proper? In Lord of the Flies , there is too little control. In 1984 , there is too much control. You'll see. Then you'll judge, predict, connect, clarify, visualize, and question--good reading strategies.
I didnt think I would be saying this, but for once I agree with Andrew Bauer. He makes great points that throughout the hole book it makes us realize if we are really human or not. Also if proper military school boys could turn out like this anyone could. I believe that inside of everyone there is a beast and we all need to keep it in check. William Golding did a magnificent job in send us the message in that we need to see if we are really what we are, or are we something or someone else that could turn bad.
I agree with Castle when he said that we need to watch who we give power to because to much power in one persons hands can lead to caos like when Hitler was in power. I think that having Ralph's and Piggy's in this world is a good thing.
i agree and disagree with Mr. Dellman on this quote
, " 1dellmana said... Golding's thesis "All men, no matter how civilized, will return to their barbaric roots when put in a primitive setting." I think that he is trying to say that inside all of us, is a beast."
There is a beast within all of us that much i agree on, but it is what we do with that beast inside us all that determines if we are barbaric or not. For ex: Jack and Ralph, Jack takes his beast to the next level and becomes almost one with the island and is a hunter and a savage. Ralph stays political in hopes of being saved. Now who would survive the longest if they kept on living in this matter on different islands Jack would obviously. It's a matter of survival that lets us show the true beast inside us.
1dierene?: I liked your thesis for Golding. I agree that the world needs order, and if we turn into savages, it would all fall apart. There have been too many Jacks in the world: Hitler, Stalin, Sadaam, Pol Pot. I'm thankful that there are people like Ralph and Piggy that are here to clean up after the Jacks and keep order in the world. I definitly don't want a nuclear war to occur.
I agree with mr. bauer. Golding picked the perfect background for these boys. What is more civilized then British military school boys. One thing i don't agree with what mr. bauer said was that "Golding obviously thinks we are all just barbarians." What i believe golding thinks is that we all have the capabilities inside ourselves to become a bararian. Golding shows us this through Jack metamorphasis from a choir boy to a spear wielding murder.
I agree with Mr. Choudek's comment. There is a beast in all of us and we can decide what to do with it. However there comes a point when we can loose much of the control over that beast and thats when it will be decided if we live by our id or our super ego. Which ever one is more dominant in our everyday lives is usually the one who will emerge when we encounter drastic measures like the boys on the island.
Goldings thesis is that even the most proper of cultures can turn violent under the right conditions. Golding wants us to consider what is right and wrong in the world. He states through the characters that people like Hitler who rule through fear are wrong. This is protrayed through the role of Jack. He the goes about saying how people should be humane to one another, as Ralph wants his tribe to be ruled in such a way. When put in the position of a join or suffer the punishment condition, as in Jacks tribe, one will more than likely do the wrong thing and join the group, even if the group supports something they don't believe in. Humans deep down are all cowards, as such was how WWII was brought about because no one could stand up against Hitler.
I think Golding is telling us what it's like to be ruled by fear, just like Jack did on the island, or like Hitler did all over Germany. One message I believe is trying to be said is that we cannot repeat history by acting like salvages again, or else we are doomed. Also, I understand that power is the ultimate judge of a person's character...Jack was given power in this novel, and it went to his head and he kept wanting more and more. Once you give a man power, you can only expect them to want more and more, until they have it all.
Mr. Castle is correct. I find a great connection between Castle's words and the US. our government is built to keep power in check, and if we dont follow those rules, the government is lost and corrupt and we may, perhaps, all burn to a crisp. The US does have people like Piggy and Ralph and thats why we elect officails to keep us in line and take care of a country. i feel that is what golding was trying to warn us about.
I think Golding's thesis is what happens to the human condition when you totally take away someone's humanity. Some of the people on the island, mainly people form Jack's tribe, become inhuman. It then becomes the struggle for everyone else to choose to be civilzed people who can reason out their problems or to become savages, to give into their id. It is my belief that it is easier to give into the id and get what you want, but it is also my belief that it takes a stronger person the make the dicision to not listen to their id and do what is right. Piggy and Ralph were strong people in this novel. They were concerned with what is right, but they were overpowered by everyone else in the end who were only listening to their id. In the end of the novel, it is my opinion that only one of the boys is acting human, and that is Ralph.
i agree with 1larsenk. Golding is saying that power can really go to ones mind and can create disasterous effects. The Holocaust is a very good example. That is something that golding is saying can be avoided again at all costs. Jack stars out in the beginning a more calm character, but once the topic of a beast n the jungle comes up he feels that he need to survive anyway possible. He then becomes very savage like, killing the boys and trying to control everything they do.
A man with alot of power and rule over people like Jack should be watched and kept in check. Golding shows us that a man with to much power and no control over him can become dangerous. Hitler and Stalin were dictators with to much power and weren't kept in line so they became evil. The U.S. knows that dictators usually don't work for governments. People believe we should leave other countries alone but i think we are trying to stop evil dictators. Just like Golding is telling us to do in this book. I think Golding is telling everybody to keep people in power in line
I agree with tlais that Golding is saying not to give someone power without restrictions. Many people follow others because they are too afraid, lazy, or just don't care to state their opinion or their beliefs. In Lord of the Flies almost none of the boys stand up to Jack, they just follow him like he can do no wrong. He and Roger are not good people but they convince the others to follow them through fear and ignorance. I don't think the boys are bad but they are young and follow Jack because he gets them meat and they don't have to work. They represent the people in world history that follow leaders blindly and don't think about what the leader's possible motive is or what the outcome might become.
Golding is showing us that right conditions make for bad decisions. We can see throughout this novel that as the boys come to terms how devistating their situation is, they become more savage and become less rational. By the end they have all changed because of the given conditions of the island and absence of normal conditions such as adults or rules.
I agree with JESSICA RAMSE that the message is to determine whether there is actually a beast within every person. I think that deep down there is and that people just hide it well with the surroundings. If put into a difficult situation, such as being stranded on an island, the beast would come out and attack. Being away from home and all of the things a person is accustomed to will cause a person to go insane, especially when there is little hope, such as what the boys are facing on the stranded island. Like Jessica said, the conscience is important and people need to listen to it rather than blow it off and just do whatever they please. This is how evil happens, such as the holocaust and such. By letting our ids take over, the world would turn into a zoo and there would be no structure, such as on the island, and there would be nohting but mass chaos because people wouldn't care about what is right, rather what feels more comfortable to them.
I agree with Mr. Nadenicek as he states that even the hardiest people can be consumed by their ID. Under such conditions as presented in the book, it takes a strong willed individual to overcome their ID and continue to act civil, it is even harder when others around you are becoming savage as time passes.
It's ironic: the only way the boys are "rescued" is by starting a fire large enough to be seen by the warring men in the sky and at sea. The only way the warring men see the island is due to the entire island burning to ashes. Are they really "rescued," though? Is their home still there? If there is nowhere for the boys to be taken, then they are not definitively "rescued."
I agree with Nadz on this. From the very beginning we learned that Piggy is very clever, but lacks leadership qualities. Piggy is pretty much like Vice-President Dick Chaney is to President George W. Bush, is to Ralph. Ralph has the leadership qualities that Piggy lacks. Ralph realizes that to be rescued ment they need to make a smoke signal. Throughout the novel you can see that Ralph's tribe is geared toward a likeness of "humanity" and Jack's tribe more toward "savagery". Jack has succumbed to his inner id. Eventually the only one left with ego/superego is Ralph. Jack wants his head on a spear much like the Lord of the Flies.
Do we blame Jack, or do we blame his role models back home? His role models are his military parents and other adults who cannot get along and who start war.
sobraski I do somewhat agree with what your saying but i also believe he wants to talk about the influence of culture and kids and what the media will turn us into if we keep letting it control most of our lives
I think Golding is telling us that with power comes evil. We all have some evil in us but most of us relate more towards Ralph. Ralph was overthrown by evil which shows that evil is stronger. When Jacks tribe attacked Ralphs tribe to get Piggys glasses they succeeded in their mission. When they stole Piggys glasses they hurt Ralphs tirbe by taking their sorce for fire which made them even more weak. All in all Jack is just like an evil dictator and Ralph is the good guy that fails.
To me, I think that Golding's idea behind this book was basically a warning to everyone. We have to be careful of who we listen to and take advice from because that person's ideas could make us end up doing things against our morals. When choosing a leader you really must know who that person is. Along with the idea of leadership, Golding showed that there is a beast in all of us that can take time to appear but will eventually come through. It sits inside of us with the potential to emerge if society around us has the right conditions. The situations we are in along with the people will encourage that beast. We just have to have the control to keep that evil from taking over.
The purpose of any army should be to keep peace not seek to create/start war, right? I support our troops because we/they try to keep peace in the world.
the point he is trying to get across is the fact that if we continuously act on impulse we will turn into the little boys on the island who turned into their romodels...people who kill for fun and destroy everything different htan them...it will be another holocaust
This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine...... Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life... So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!
I agree with #23 because Jack is powerful and needs to be checked on because he is dangerous. He also usually gets his way because he has his own tribe. This compares to Hitler taking over Europe and making his own people believe to kill Jews is the right thing to do. All over the world this has happed in the past but now things have started get a little better. Eventually this could happen again since other countries are making Nukes. Then it would be the end of the world.
With my view i beilive that Golding is trying to get the point that everyone has a savage side. Some sides are shown in more suddle ways then what Golding showed but it seemed he wanted to make a situation where it was impossible for anyone to not be a cultured human being. By putting very cultured young Brithish boys on a island he showed his point that everyone can be a savage. By useing choir boys as the most evil of them all he still is proving his point. It is very intreging the way that this story is played out from Jack not being able to kill the pig from wanting to put Ralph's head on a stick. Jack takes that 180 degree turn toward his savage side and imbraced it. By doing this Golding has shown his point that the savages in all of us are present.
i agree with baura's idea of what a human actually is inside. i think that each and every one of us would do what ever he or she needed to do in order to survive. i think that this selfish desire proves that we all have some sort of inhumane qualities within us. i also agree with immeker's comments on power. i think that a person's true, instinctive inside could be controlled with a system of checks and balances. this would be especially important with a leadership type role. jack could have first off done a better job of controlling himself, preventing his actions and providing a good example for the younger kids to look up to. however, everyone else could have prevented him from making his rise to the top and eventually taking complete control of the boys.
Responding to Mr. Christensen's comment, that is a very good lesson to get out of this novel. Golding makes an extremely good point, at the end when the island is in flames, this could mean that if we get carried away, the world will turn into flames. Golding is telling the world that we need to be careful in things that we do. Humans are causing global warming, damaging the world, and doing terrible things to people. These things need to stop in order for the world to keep on going. Global warming is happening now, and could ruin the world years down the road if we keep these things up. There have been many horrible things happen in history, the good that we can get from them is to learn to never do it again. That could be why we learn so much about history, so we learn how and why it happened, and to never let them happen again.
I agree with what Bridgets point of view. The people we are around do influence us either positively or negatively. And I do believe that Golding was trying to tell people that they should think about who they listen to and think about the people they are most often around. Another point Bridget made was that Golding was trying to tell us that we should be cautios about who we vote for as our leaders. It is essential to know everything about who you are voting for and that you agree with many if not all of their points of view. Reading this book is very handy especially for the class of 2008 because most of us are either 18 or are about to turn a 18 and can vote in the next presedential election. Before I vote I want to learn everything I can about each candidate. I believe it is unwise of people to vote based on appearance, race, or age, and that people shouldnt be allowed to vote if that is all they base their vote on.
Golding was trying to tell us that if you give people to much power or let them do whatever they want with no boundaries, people will change and the world will be corrupt. The island was running fine with Ralph as chief until Jack got power hungry and decided that it was gonna be his way or no way. Which is sometimes how things go in different countries. You either believe what you leader tells you or your gone.
Mr. Christensen used this quote... Leon Levitt says is the thesis of this novel: "that it is not an evil within us that makes us do terrible things, it is the way our Western society is structured that makes us violently competitive, totally tribal, cruelly judgmental, and potentially downright wicked." I disagree with this quote about the structure of Western society making us the way we are. I feel that our society is less competitive than others around the world, such as, China's. In China they have to succeed and be competitive or they will find themselves working in factories for the rest of their lives. They have more of a reason to be competitive than we do b/c their consequences are greater. But on the aspects other than competitiveness our culture definitely influences us in those ways. We learn from out surroundings to be "totally tribal, cruelly judgmental, and potentially downright wicked." We learn and mimic these things from early childhood.
I agree with 7andrewsa. I also believe that Golding was trying to tell us that when people have to much power the do what they want and don't always think about the consequences. I also believe that the island was fine with Ralph as chief until Jack began his power trip and decided to take over. Jack just got too power hungry for his own good.
I beleive the point Golding was trying to make was the primal instinct in all men. The absence of parents (particularly mothers because most boys will ownly obey there mothers) is the absence of a wise authority. These children dont know what they should do and they probably haven't been in school long enough to learn from the mistakes made throughout history. Ralph and Jack sort of symbolise two diffrent kinds of government. Ralph's tribe was simalar to American government, and like our government Ralph is probably not the most knowlageable person in the tribe. However he can help keep people together and he keeps those who know more than him in some areas close to him. So Piggy, Simon and Jack were in a sence part of Ralph's Cabinate. Jack from the begining just wanted to be in charge. Ralph gave him the military(basically). So when Jack felt that Ralph was to week to be a leader he broke away with all that would leave with him to start a military dictatorship. Dictators dont have to be smart and they don't need anyone to say they are right, all they need is ambition and the ability to inspire fear into his people. When someone had something to say that would ruin his position he just got rid of them. They didn't even hear what Simon was saying, either they were so ubsorbed in what they were becomning, or to afraid not to fit in they killed him. He was a threat, what he was going to say would have probably ruined Jack's new possition. Maybe they did hear him. Maybe Jack still godded them on. Maybe he didn't let them hear. He makes sure that his tribe knows they should kill Piggy before he can say anything against him, so they do... The manhunt continued with Ralph and they nearly burnt up the whole island, but they were thrusted so quickly back into reality you almost are supprized that Jack and his hunters didn't simply kill Ralph anyway, because they were so far gone already.
its a very simple message. simple people need to keep watch over other people cause if we dont then people will go "primal" and use their natural instincts and thoes are jeloicy, greed , fear , and anger cause those are the ones needed to survive. so people are kind of like a watch dog to keep other people in check and people set standars so people dont go back to basic.
i agree with pretty much everyone. in the fact that if you give somone too much power that person will creat a dictatorship. also that golding is saying that there is a savage in all of us no matter who we are. that physical appearance is almost everything not the persons brain.
I very much agree with Bauer. British school boys were perfect for the part. Although they were used to nothing but routine rules and supervision they turned to barbarians very quickly without their strict lifesyles they were used to. Golding shows us how one person should not be given all the power. The U.S. has diveded power well between people. Golding is trying to show the readers how people need to look at others mistakes to make sure they are not making the same ones. Like the naval officer at the end when he says he cannot believe the boys have turned into this. He is acting the same in a similar situation during war. It is true that everyone has the ability to be evil. No one is good all the time and in the wrong enviornment anything can happen. Golding knew that people would read the book and think how could this ever happen and then realize that it IS happening everyday in the world still.
I think THE Silent Pimp put in some really good input... He has a big point in saying western culture isn't near as demanding as some... Our society is pretty lax, we live very very well compared to many others in the world...
I believe that Golding's thesis is telling us that if we do not learn from our previous salvage leaders, we are all doomed to repeat ourselves. Golding makes it clear that in order to have order, we must think before we act, not the other way around...
I also believe that Golding was telling us through this novel that as problems come up in life, you must deal with them as necessary, b/c no matter what you do, you cannot run away from them, and they will just keep on coming. There will never be a point in one's life where they are perfect w/ no complications. We need to keep a level head and approach each complication with a reasonalbe solution and move on.
I think that Golding is trying to show us how our human behaviors can quickly diminish if we chose to let them. Is it that easy for humans to become dehumanized and savage? I think that you can be overcome by your primitive instincts and therefore very susceptible to events that you know are wrong. When you get to this point, you don’t care whether what you’re doing is wrong or right because it is what your primitive state is telling you to do.
I believe that Golding is trying to show us that if we allow ourselves to give into our basic urges we can return to our savage roots. Throughout the entire book Piggy keeps himself very controlled and civil and never falls into the pandemonium that Jack creates. While Jack falls into the urge to hunt and attack and becomes completely savage. I also believe he is trying to get across that when Jack paints his face he feels free because he's hiding behind the mask. He (Golding) is trying to show us how easy it is to be cruel when you feel like you can hide behind something. I think this idea can even travel through to this current day and age because of cyber bullying and such.
82 comments:
I believe that Goldng's thesis communicated through this novel is to stay away from leaders like jack or hitler. I also think it is to avoid people with too much power. Power can screw with your head..like it did to golum in the movies lord of the rings. I also think he is sending hte message to let your Superego rule your ID...
I really like and dislike what Leon Levitt says is the thesis of this novel: that it is not an evil within us that makes us do terrible things, it is the way our Western society is structured that makes us violently competitive, totally tribal, cruelly judgmental, and potentially downright wicked. This is sad to me, that we've created ways to be bad to each other. Our culture is supposed to welcome all and work together for the common good. Golding is a rather pessimistic, critical, skeptical. He says that it is not an inherent evil that makes us create and use nuclear weapons; it is the way we created our culture! Whoa.
I believe that Golding is trying to say that if you give someone to much power with out having any restrictions on them things can get out of hand extremely quickly. Golding shows this trough Jack, he is given alot of power from ralph and the other boys. He thinks that he is very powerful because he gets the food for the boys. I think that Jack getting the food for them is a good idea but he should have been monitored more by all of the boys. Overall I think that the boys should have not elected a certain one or two people to lead they should have done it like our government does it. They should have made it so not any one person could have to much power.
I believe that the main point around the whole book is to better understand how surroundings can affect the manner of a person. In "Lord of the Flies" Golding makes the reader extremely involved with what's going on on the island. He makes sure that you know exactly what he is trying to describe. In order to make it even more intensified he gradually shows how the characters are evolving, he does not just go from one thing to the next with no connection. The boys start out as well-mannered British citizens and become the more extreme savage creatures, all from being exposed to a situation that was an unexpected opposite that they did not know how to handle it. Being young boys, they have yet to see enough of the world to understand the proper procedure to follow in these circumstances. It also does not help the fact that they were brought up slightly helpless, expecting someone else to do everything for them (at least that is how they come across being from a high-class prep school).
Golding's thesis "All men, no matter how civilized, will return to their barbaric roots when put in a primitive setting." I think that he is trying to say that inside all of us, is a beast. weather we realize it or not. By using british boys, a society that is thought to very civilized, he is showing that all people would turn savage if put on an island. I think he is trying to show us that we a re living like savages and need to be saved somehow, like the boys in the book. He believes that a nuclear war is eminate. If you ask golding he would say eisenhower is just as bad as hitler or stalin.
I think that Golding wanted to let the world know that if we turn into savages the world will fall to pieces. We need some order in the world like Piggy and Ralph wanted. Without any order on the earth we would be involved a nuclear war. Being responsible and keeping order is what keeps America strong and powerful. People like Hitler, Sadaam, Stalin, or Pol Pot are savages like Jack's tribe. They kill innocent people because they turn into barbarians through some odd stage in there life. Savages ruin the good responsible order in the rest of the world and reck some human life.
William Golding's thesis is that he does not want events such as the Holocaust to every happen again. He works this into the novel The Lord of the Flies by showing what problems and how chaotic things become when one person becomes the leader of the group. When Hitler came into rein he was able to convince the Germans that Jewish people were to blame for all of the promblems in Germany at this time. In the novel Jack slowly takes over the other boys' minds and gets them to do this that they would probably not do if the had stayed under the leardership of Ralph. The boys that followed Jack and those that followed Hilter basically became savage people. Their minds were taken over by their leaders and started to only do what they were told rather then think for themselves. Tha main message that we are suppose to consider is: when a group of people are left stranded alone are they able to live life close to normal or will their lives only become chaotic and possible not even be able to survive. As Golding has wrote about in his novel he obviously thinks that humans are unable to live close to normal when left stranded on an island to fend for themselves.
i think that the main point of the book is to get the message through to people that we have to be careful of what kind of leaders we choose to follow. That people need to take a step back sometimes and really consider what is going on. I also think that he is pointing out that even children know evil, it is human nature, but that there are ways to solve things with out killing people or acting like children.
I think that Golding was tring to say how life is very fagile. You should never give up. Even if all hope is gone you should keep on tring your hardest. You should never make fun of the people that have problems with there life because they are people to and it can hurt you in the end. I think the main message is that you should not rely on yourself to do stuff you should do it in a group so wont go crazy all by yourself.
I think that 1dellmana said it very well, that inside all of us there is a beast, or a Hitler (hopefully not as extreme), or a Jack. No matter who you are or where you come from, you will always want some kind of power in some kind of situation, and Golding makes a good point in showing us what can happen if that power goes to the wrong person or is used for the wrong reasons or how that power is obtained.
I believe Golding's thesis is an apocalyptic theory. In his knowledge of the fundamentals of man and observing the patterns of modern culture/world history, he made a curious prediction on the future of our culture/world. He was once a soldier involved with the nuclear war and all the hate and destruction...this must have appalled and terrified Golding, because he was compelled to write this novel. So, he 1.) implanted his fears in this novel to sprout awareness for the contagious disease of war,hate, and separation and 2.) slipped in his (unfortunately accurate, I'd say) prediction for us all in the end. He warns civilization to "knock it off" through this novel. But, whether Golding's attitude is perceived as pessimistic and dark or exposed and requiring much energy, all of mankind MUST react to this and be proactive for some sort of rescue. Other wise, we'll set the whole earth ablaze and send ourselves to the next fiery home...where are we to go? What are we going to do about that?
Goldings theme for this novel is to convey a message about the holocaust. Golding uses Jack to convey Hitler, becuause when Hitler started out he wasnt as violent and unhumane, Jack starts out civilized and the beast gets to him and he becomes savage. He starts trying to murder the boys to gain more power. Golding uses the setting and the boys to convey the events of the holocaust. I have researched the holocaust many times and it is one of the worse tragedies in history. Golding is brilliant to be able to use a story about a bunch of boys in the jungle, he turns it into a message on how the holocaust should never be repeated. I totally agree with him on this and I thought it was genious to think up a thesis like that.
I agree with mr dieren. America is strong and powerful. Some people say we "police" too much but i think the world needs it. With out some sort of dignitary above you it would be complete chaos. I belive that is how all of the large countries keep not only the smaller countries in check, but themselves also. also we are all truly savage inside. This is shown in goldings novel. This is something that all people will realize at sometime or another.
I am agreeing completely with liz Wright, she really brought a good point about how Golding must have been "appalled and terrified" by Hitler. It was really good analysis and that hadnt seeped into my mind until now. What she wrote was very intelligent and I agree with what she had stated.
I feel Leah is right on with the message Golding is trying to get aross to his readers. Her first sentence is very good because it shows how people will change if the Environment foces you to. She all so says Golding has connection to every thing in this book. That is so true because he Explains a topic very well then he uses that to go onto the next topic. The boys are some what helpless because they have looked up to there parents like leah says and they have to learn to Survive with out them.
i agree with mathis on this one, we have so much to live for as people and not nearly enough time, golding tries to tell us like mathis said that life is fragile and we need to not make fun of people with anything that makes them different from ourselves, as people we like mathis said need to fight for what we believe in and keep trying if it means a lot to us.
I agree with ms. bly. The people of the world need to learn how to pick their leaders and be educated to be able to vote for a certain person. Plus, we need to act like humans not like animals.
I believe that Golding has several points to his message during the reading of The lord of the Flies. He shows how someone with too much power can destroy things in several ways. Jack was a lession of this. He also shows how you have to use your resourses wisely. When jack broke Piggys glasses, he was wasting an important resourse they had. This book also symoblizes how people are not what they are expected to be. These boys are suppost to be proper british boys. Thier actions prove that wrong. They do un cristian like things to people who are the most important. This book has alot to offer, if you take the time to read it carefully.
I agree with Denise. Goldings message to everyone is that you dont need just one leader. You can have several and still work things out. Being stranded was hard for these kids that were not used to having to make their own decisions. They were used to having everything laid out for them and have a adult structure always there. Now they are left to fend for themselves. They think they need a leader when in reality, they just need to work together to get rescued.
I agree with laycock, i also agree that Golding was trying to prove the point that just because a ruler may have "power" you do not have to follow them. Although there may be some draw backs to going against the one in power it would be worth it in the long run. Jack was in power, he killed the brains and the orginaztion of the group. He felt like he was losing power and he got rid of them. Hitler killed the inferior race, and Jack killed the people he thought were inferior to him. Having "power" over a lot of people is a very potent thing, and when put into the wrong hands it can be taken advantage of, and used in horrible ways.
I think that Golding's message is that life is fragile, and that you have to be careful with who you look up to. The message in Lord of the Flies says that Golding doesn't want to see the world become chaos. It took Jack how long to become crazy for pig's blood? A couple of days maybe. The world needs order otherwise we'll become savages just like Jack. All Ralph and Piggy were trying to do was to have a chance to be rescued, and Jack didn't seem to care.
I think Golding made his point very clear throughout the novel. His intentions were to make us consider what we are really like as people inside. It is obvious that he thinks we are all barbarians and if need be we will go from being a very civilized people to a crazy inhumane civilization. Military school boys from Britain were the perfect thing for him to use in order to get his point across that we are all like this. School boys are used to the scheduling and routine of everyday along with being told what to do; we would probably considering being about as civilized as you can be. However when they are pulled away from that they change and follow their instincts instead of what they have been taught. I think Golding acomplished exactly what he wanted to by this book, getting people to think and wonder, are we really that civilized or good or are we barbaric and evil?
From the begining the book has been about people trying to control the situation that they are in. The boys get to this island because people want to control whether or not they are "bombed" or not. They are trying to save these boys but really they could be harming them. The book shows people wanting to be heard and listened to and really lead a group. There are struggles for power. This book was about domanice and fear. half of the book is wrote just about the "beast" and trying to control the surroundings.
I think Golding is trying to tell us that if we become to self centered and listen to our ID like Jack, we will all become corrupt just like the island did. The boys thought it was a good island but as the days went by they had fear of a beast, and being hunted. And Jack took to much power and listend to his ID, which continued with the corruption. This is just how it goes with Hitler and all the other communist leaders, they have too much power. I kinda interperut Jack as the communist countries, and Ralph as the U.S. because he tries to help, but then it becomes useless and he jsut says, let them be, just like the U.S. did during the War.
Golding's thesis is that everyone has good and evil in them (superego and id), some just listen more to their evil and let it take control. Humans are unique in that they know right from wrong, but they don't always choose the right thing. Your conscience controls you, but overtime, some people lose their conscience. The evil dictators and rulers of the world have no compassion, pity, or mercy for others. Something in their life made them lose their conscience and follow through with their id. They become inhuman. Like Hitler, killing over 6 million jews just because he didn't like them. I think that Golding is a very good writer who makes you think and consider many different aspects of life and who really want you to question the superego, ego, and id.
I think Golding's thesis is one of which he thinks there are many things we fear in life and some of those we should overcome. There are so many things when we were young that we were afraid of. Especially, the boogey man under our bed or in our closet. We need to overcome those fears and be able to love what we can no longer fear. There are people who could take over our country and we would fear them because we would not want to be killed or tortured because of their power and intent to change our country. Golding, I think has gone through the fear of nuclear attacks. It has brought him to writing this book and showing the world the fear we can imagine.
I agree with Mr. Dellman and Mr. Dieren. Without some sort of order in our lives there would be chaos. If we dont keep the next generations of Hitlers and Stalins in order they can ruin the world. Especially since most of the world has nukes now. I know Dieren is afraid of that. Golding did a great job of getting his pint accross that if we lose order and turn into savages, we will resort to barbaian behavior. Like Jack and his tribe. They were 12 years old and some even younger and they were killing people without remorse. Thats just unheard of.
I think that Golding is trying to say that with out a conscience people will do terrible things. People that are not civilized will not have any structure. With out structure people won't know what is concidered morally right or wrong. If they don't know what is right or wrong they will do what they want no matter how bad it is. People that rule by making people scared of what they can do to you if you don't conform to their way are the leader that have killed the most people in the world. People that kill so many people are ruled by their id and not their superego. I think that Jack would be like Hitler and Roger is like the German army that does all the killing.
I agree with laycocka. Too much power can posess your mind, just like in Lord of the Rings. That Golem character killed his best friend just to hold the ring. And just like in Spider-man "great power comes great responsibility". peter parker thinks that just because he has superpowers means he can do anything, but he later learns that it's harder than he thinks.
The main message Golding was trying to send to us I think is to not become a savage and stay sane. The book is a prime example of what can happen if we dont keep power in check. We also need rational people like Piggy and Ralph to keep us going in the right direction. But if we dont stay sane and become like Roger and Jack we could all die. Also we could all burn up in ashes and burn to a crisp. We if we dont have order in our lives we could turn out like Hitler and there could be mass murderers in the world. So all we need to do is stay insane and keep an eye over those "Jacks" and make sure they dont turn into savages.
I think that the message is that if you let someone have too much power they are going to abuse it. We read that in most books. We grew up knowing that having too much power could mean that you would become evil. In most childrens book the evil doer is the one with the most power and by the end of the book the evil doer tends to lose. We learn at a young age that you don't need power to be heard. In Lord of the Flies, it seems as if you need to have power to be heard. Exspecially at their meetings, when Piggy is trying to speak.
In some ways i view this novel as a memoir of the holocaust. Other memoirs of the holocaust, such as the Diary of Anne Frank, are taught primarily in today's schools so that we can teach the youth on how to not act. It can be used as a prequisite warning on what will happen if a Hitler-figure comes into power again. They want to prevent another Holocaust, so they want to teach us about it. Although Golding's novel may not be related to his own personal experiences like Anne Frank, we still learn from it. This may be a reason why we read this novel in school. I believe that his thesis in this novel would be that without proper civilization, man would return back to primitive nature. I also think that a main message he is trying to portray in his novel is too be wary of what you do. The world could end in disaster with a horrible leader in command if the people are all subjective to what they think is right, or forced to believe something.
I believe that Golding wants the readers to know how power can cause people to become corrupt. Once a person has power they seem to use it to their advantage. A person with power can easily become corrupt if there isn't a system of checks and balances. Our government has a system of checks and balances which prevents one branch of our government from having to much power. Without checks and balances it would only be a matter of time before our government would became corrupt. The lack of checks and balances leads to the downfall on the island. Jack is able to control the boys because there is no one to check his actions. This is why the island is more like a dictatorship and less like a democracy.
i think Golding's message to us through his book is about power. We need to watch who has the power and make sure we're not following like sheep. We need to be independent because who's watching out for us? There is nobody responsible for us but ourselves. just like on the island they were responsible for themselves and everybody left the good leader A.K.A. Ralph and went to the dominant power hungry leader. Who ends up destroying the island. just like if we find a power hungry leader for the world he could destroy it. in my mind Golding is putting the island as the world. And he is putting Jack and Ralph as our presidents and dictators, and the funny thing about that is he makes them kids or he symoblizes our leaders as kids. But also the bigguns are symbols of countrys or other people in power who have a choice about what they do and choose to follow and the littluns are symbols of the people who elect their leaders but can be left out by their countries and leaders and be casualties of war.
I would have to agree with tlais that if there are no restrictions on power then things will get out of hand very quickly. In the story Jack has no restrictions on his power so he becomes corrupt very quickly. If there were some restrictions then the boys would have been able to last a lot longer.
I believe that Golding's message is to determine whether or not some sort of beast is in factlocated in each and every one of us. When put in a difficult situation, it did not take long for Jack to turn to dictatorship. Jack had always been a fine boy until they were on the island. We need to question ourselves and have a conscience(Piggy) and not let it fade away(or die). It is vital that we do not let our ids take over. We need to make sure we consciously make the right decisions and not fall to communism when put in the situation. Golding did a good job in the book...it really makes a person question if there is a beast in each one of us, or if provoked, if we COULD turn into beast like animals.
How much control is good/proper? In Lord of the Flies , there is too little control. In 1984 , there is too much control. You'll see. Then you'll judge, predict, connect, clarify, visualize, and question--good reading strategies.
I didnt think I would be saying this, but for once I agree with Andrew Bauer. He makes great points that throughout the hole book it makes us realize if we are really human or not. Also if proper military school boys could turn out like this anyone could. I believe that inside of everyone there is a beast and we all need to keep it in check. William Golding did a magnificent job in send us the message in that we need to see if we are really what we are, or are we something or someone else that could turn bad.
Interesting that he uses choir boys to become the most savage members. Choir boys are stereotypically cherubic/angelic, aren't they?
I agree with Castle when he said that we need to watch who we give power to because to much power in one persons hands can lead to caos like when Hitler was in power. I think that having Ralph's and Piggy's in this world is a good thing.
Isn't it wicked that Jack's tribe wants to place Ralph's head on top of a spear in the end?
i agree and disagree with Mr. Dellman on this quote
, " 1dellmana said...
Golding's thesis "All men, no matter how civilized, will return to their barbaric roots when put in a primitive setting." I think that he is trying to say that inside all of us, is a beast."
There is a beast within all of us that much i agree on, but it is what we do with that beast inside us all that determines if we are barbaric or not. For ex: Jack and Ralph, Jack takes his beast to the next level and becomes almost one with the island and is a hunter and a savage. Ralph stays political in hopes of being saved. Now who would survive the longest if they kept on living in this matter on different islands Jack would obviously. It's a matter of survival that lets us show the true beast inside us.
1dierene?: I liked your thesis for Golding. I agree that the world needs order, and if we turn into savages, it would all fall apart. There have been too many Jacks in the world: Hitler, Stalin, Sadaam, Pol Pot. I'm thankful that there are people like Ralph and Piggy that are here to clean up after the Jacks and keep order in the world. I definitly don't want a nuclear war to occur.
I agree with mr. bauer. Golding picked the perfect background for these boys. What is more civilized then British military school boys. One thing i don't agree with what mr. bauer said was that "Golding obviously thinks we are all just barbarians." What i believe golding thinks is that we all have the capabilities inside ourselves to become a bararian. Golding shows us this through Jack metamorphasis from a choir boy to a spear wielding murder.
I agree with Mr. Choudek's comment. There is a beast in all of us and we can decide what to do with it. However there comes a point when we can loose much of the control over that beast and thats when it will be decided if we live by our id or our super ego. Which ever one is more dominant in our everyday lives is usually the one who will emerge when we encounter drastic measures like the boys on the island.
Goldings thesis is that even the most proper of cultures can turn violent under the right conditions. Golding wants us to consider what is right and wrong in the world. He states through the characters that people like Hitler who rule through fear are wrong. This is protrayed through the role of Jack. He the goes about saying how people should be humane to one another, as Ralph wants his tribe to be ruled in such a way. When put in the position of a join or suffer the punishment condition, as in Jacks tribe, one will more than likely do the wrong thing and join the group, even if the group supports something they don't believe in. Humans deep down are all cowards, as such was how WWII was brought about because no one could stand up against Hitler.
I have to agree with A. Laycock...
I think Golding is telling us what it's like to be ruled by fear, just like Jack did on the island, or like Hitler did all over Germany. One message I believe is trying to be said is that we cannot repeat history by acting like salvages again, or else we are doomed.
Also, I understand that power is the ultimate judge of a person's character...Jack was given power in this novel, and it went to his head and he kept wanting more and more. Once you give a man power, you can only expect them to want more and more, until they have it all.
Mr. Castle is correct. I find a great connection between Castle's words and the US. our government is built to keep power in check, and if we dont follow those rules, the government is lost and corrupt and we may, perhaps, all burn to a crisp. The US does have people like Piggy and Ralph and thats why we elect officails to keep us in line and take care of a country. i feel that is what golding was trying to warn us about.
I think Golding's thesis is what happens to the human condition when you totally take away someone's humanity. Some of the people on the island, mainly people form Jack's tribe, become inhuman. It then becomes the struggle for everyone else to choose to be civilzed people who can reason out their problems or to become savages, to give into their id. It is my belief that it is easier to give into the id and get what you want, but it is also my belief that it takes a stronger person the make the dicision to not listen to their id and do what is right. Piggy and Ralph were strong people in this novel. They were concerned with what is right, but they were overpowered by everyone else in the end who were only listening to their id. In the end of the novel, it is my opinion that only one of the boys is acting human, and that is Ralph.
i agree with 1larsenk. Golding is saying that power can really go to ones mind and can create disasterous effects. The Holocaust is a very good example. That is something that golding is saying can be avoided again at all costs. Jack stars out in the beginning a more calm character, but once the topic of a beast n the jungle comes up he feels that he need to survive anyway possible. He then becomes very savage like, killing the boys and trying to control everything they do.
A man with alot of power and rule over people like Jack should be watched and kept in check. Golding shows us that a man with to much power and no control over him can become dangerous. Hitler and Stalin were dictators with to much power and weren't kept in line so they became evil. The U.S. knows that dictators usually don't work for governments. People believe we should leave other countries alone but i think we are trying to stop evil dictators. Just like Golding is telling us to do in this book. I think Golding is telling everybody to keep people in power in line
I agree with tlais that Golding is saying not to give someone power without restrictions. Many people follow others because they are too afraid, lazy, or just don't care to state their opinion or their beliefs. In Lord of the Flies almost none of the boys stand up to Jack, they just follow him like he can do no wrong. He and Roger are not good people but they convince the others to follow them through fear and ignorance. I don't think the boys are bad but they are young and follow Jack because he gets them meat and they don't have to work. They represent the people in world history that follow leaders blindly and don't think about what the leader's possible motive is or what the outcome might become.
I agree with 5SobraskeJ...
Golding is showing us that right conditions make for bad decisions. We can see throughout this novel that as the boys come to terms how devistating their situation is, they become more savage and become less rational. By the end they have all changed because of the given conditions of the island and absence of normal conditions such as adults or rules.
I agree with JESSICA RAMSE that the message is to determine whether there is actually a beast within every person. I think that deep down there is and that people just hide it well with the surroundings. If put into a difficult situation, such as being stranded on an island, the beast would come out and attack. Being away from home and all of the things a person is accustomed to will cause a person to go insane, especially when there is little hope, such as what the boys are facing on the stranded island. Like Jessica said, the conscience is important and people need to listen to it rather than blow it off and just do whatever they please. This is how evil happens, such as the holocaust and such. By letting our ids take over, the world would turn into a zoo and there would be no structure, such as on the island, and there would be nohting but mass chaos because people wouldn't care about what is right, rather what feels more comfortable to them.
I agree with Mr. Nadenicek as he states that even the hardiest people can be consumed by their ID. Under such conditions as presented in the book, it takes a strong willed individual to overcome their ID and continue to act civil, it is even harder when others around you are becoming savage as time passes.
It's ironic: the only way the boys are "rescued" is by starting a fire large enough to be seen by the warring men in the sky and at sea. The only way the warring men see the island is due to the entire island burning to ashes. Are they really "rescued," though? Is their home still there? If there is nowhere for the boys to be taken, then they are not definitively "rescued."
I agree with Nadz on this. From the very beginning we learned that Piggy is very clever, but lacks leadership qualities. Piggy is pretty much like Vice-President Dick Chaney is to President George W. Bush, is to Ralph. Ralph has the leadership qualities that Piggy lacks. Ralph realizes that to be rescued ment they need to make a smoke signal. Throughout the novel you can see that Ralph's tribe is geared toward a likeness of "humanity" and Jack's tribe more toward "savagery". Jack has succumbed to his inner id. Eventually the only one left with ego/superego is Ralph. Jack wants his head on a spear much like the Lord of the Flies.
Do we blame Jack, or do we blame his role models back home? His role models are his military parents and other adults who cannot get along and who start war.
sobraski I do somewhat agree with what your saying but i also believe he wants to talk about the influence of culture and kids and what the media will turn us into if we keep letting it control most of our lives
I think Golding is telling us that with power comes evil. We all have some evil in us but most of us relate more towards Ralph. Ralph was overthrown by evil which shows that evil is stronger. When Jacks tribe attacked Ralphs tribe to get Piggys glasses they succeeded in their mission. When they stole Piggys glasses they hurt Ralphs tirbe by taking their sorce for fire which made them even more weak. All in all Jack is just like an evil dictator and Ralph is the good guy that fails.
To me, I think that Golding's idea behind this book was basically a warning to everyone. We have to be careful of who we listen to and take advice from because that person's ideas could make us end up doing things against our morals. When choosing a leader you really must know who that person is. Along with the idea of leadership, Golding showed that there is a beast in all of us that can take time to appear but will eventually come through. It sits inside of us with the potential to emerge if society around us has the right conditions. The situations we are in along with the people will encourage that beast. We just have to have the control to keep that evil from taking over.
The purpose of any army should be to keep peace not seek to create/start war, right? I support our troops because we/they try to keep peace in the world.
the point he is trying to get across is the fact that if we continuously act on impulse we will turn into the little boys on the island who turned into their romodels...people who kill for fun and destroy everything different htan them...it will be another holocaust
This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine......
Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life...
So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!
I agree with #23 because Jack is powerful and needs to be checked on because he is dangerous. He also usually gets his way because he has his own tribe. This compares to Hitler taking over Europe and making his own people believe to kill Jews is the right thing to do. All over the world this has happed in the past but now things have started get a little better. Eventually this could happen again since other countries are making Nukes. Then it would be the end of the world.
Is this an apocalyptic novel?
At a Holocaust memorial: "Forgive, but never forget." Golding wants us to remember--and to change.
With my view i beilive that Golding is trying to get the point that everyone has a savage side. Some sides are shown in more suddle ways then what Golding showed but it seemed he wanted to make a situation where it was impossible for anyone to not be a cultured human being. By putting very cultured young Brithish boys on a island he showed his point that everyone can be a savage. By useing choir boys as the most evil of them all he still is proving his point. It is very intreging the way that this story is played out from Jack not being able to kill the pig from wanting to put Ralph's head on a stick. Jack takes that 180 degree turn toward his savage side and imbraced it. By doing this Golding has shown his point that the savages in all of us are present.
i agree with baura's idea of what a human actually is inside. i think that each and every one of us would do what ever he or she needed to do in order to survive. i think that this selfish desire proves that we all have some sort of inhumane qualities within us. i also agree with immeker's comments on power. i think that a person's true, instinctive inside could be controlled with a system of checks and balances. this would be especially important with a leadership type role. jack could have first off done a better job of controlling himself, preventing his actions and providing a good example for the younger kids to look up to. however, everyone else could have prevented him from making his rise to the top and eventually taking complete control of the boys.
Responding to Mr. Christensen's comment, that is a very good lesson to get out of this novel. Golding makes an extremely good point, at the end when the island is in flames, this could mean that if we get carried away, the world will turn into flames. Golding is telling the world that we need to be careful in things that we do. Humans are causing global warming, damaging the world, and doing terrible things to people. These things need to stop in order for the world to keep on going. Global warming is happening now, and could ruin the world years down the road if we keep these things up. There have been many horrible things happen in history, the good that we can get from them is to learn to never do it again. That could be why we learn so much about history, so we learn how and why it happened, and to never let them happen again.
I agree with what Bridgets point of view. The people we are around do influence us either positively or negatively. And I do believe that Golding was trying to tell people that they should think about who they listen to and think about the people they are most often around. Another point Bridget made was that Golding was trying to tell us that we should be cautios about who we vote for as our leaders. It is essential to know everything about who you are voting for and that you agree with many if not all of their points of view. Reading this book is very handy especially for the class of 2008 because most of us are either 18 or are about to turn a 18 and can vote in the next presedential election. Before I vote I want to learn everything I can about each candidate. I believe it is unwise of people to vote based on appearance, race, or age, and that people shouldnt be allowed to vote if that is all they base their vote on.
Golding was trying to tell us that if you give people to much power or let them do whatever they want with no boundaries, people will change and the world will be corrupt. The island was running fine with Ralph as chief until Jack got power hungry and decided that it was gonna be his way or no way. Which is sometimes how things go in different countries. You either believe what you leader tells you or your gone.
Mr. Christensen used this quote...
Leon Levitt says is the thesis of this novel: "that it is not an evil within us that makes us do terrible things, it is the way our Western society is structured that makes us violently competitive, totally tribal, cruelly judgmental, and potentially downright wicked."
I disagree with this quote about the structure of Western society making us the way we are. I feel that our society is less competitive than others around the world, such as, China's. In China they have to succeed and be competitive or they will find themselves working in factories for the rest of their lives. They have more of a reason to be competitive than we do b/c their consequences are greater. But on the aspects other than competitiveness our culture definitely influences us in those ways. We learn from out surroundings to be "totally tribal, cruelly judgmental, and potentially downright wicked." We learn and mimic these things from early childhood.
I agree with 7andrewsa. I also believe that Golding was trying to tell us that when people have to much power the do what they want and don't always think about the consequences. I also believe that the island was fine with Ralph as chief until Jack began his power trip and decided to take over. Jack just got too power hungry for his own good.
I beleive the point Golding was trying to make was the primal instinct in all men. The absence of parents (particularly mothers because most boys will ownly obey there mothers) is the absence of a wise authority. These children dont know what they should do and they probably haven't been in school long enough to learn from the mistakes made throughout history. Ralph and Jack sort of symbolise two diffrent kinds of government. Ralph's tribe was simalar to American government, and like our government Ralph is probably not the most knowlageable person in the tribe. However he can help keep people together and he keeps those who know more than him in some areas close to him. So Piggy, Simon and Jack were in a sence part of Ralph's Cabinate. Jack from the begining just wanted to be in charge. Ralph gave him the military(basically). So when Jack felt that Ralph was to week to be a leader he broke away with all that would leave with him to start a military dictatorship. Dictators dont have to be smart and they don't need anyone to say they are right, all they need is ambition and the ability to inspire fear into his people. When someone had something to say that would ruin his position he just got rid of them. They didn't even hear what Simon was saying, either they were so ubsorbed in what they were becomning, or to afraid not to fit in they killed him. He was a threat, what he was going to say would have probably ruined Jack's new possition. Maybe they did hear him. Maybe Jack still godded them on. Maybe he didn't let them hear. He makes sure that his tribe knows they should kill Piggy before he can say anything against him, so they do... The manhunt continued with Ralph and they nearly burnt up the whole island, but they were thrusted so quickly back into reality you almost are supprized that Jack and his hunters didn't simply kill Ralph anyway, because they were so far gone already.
its a very simple message. simple people need to keep watch over other people cause if we dont then people will go "primal" and use their natural instincts and thoes are jeloicy, greed , fear , and anger cause those are the ones needed to survive. so people are kind of like a watch dog to keep other people in check and people set standars so people dont go back to basic.
i agree with pretty much everyone. in the fact that if you give somone too much power that person will creat a dictatorship. also that golding is saying that there is a savage in all of us no matter who we are. that physical appearance is almost everything not the persons brain.
I very much agree with Bauer. British school boys were perfect for the part. Although they were used to nothing but routine rules and supervision they turned to barbarians very quickly without their strict lifesyles they were used to. Golding shows us how one person should not be given all the power. The U.S. has diveded power well between people. Golding is trying to show the readers how people need to look at others mistakes to make sure they are not making the same ones. Like the naval officer at the end when he says he cannot believe the boys have turned into this. He is acting the same in a similar situation during war. It is true that everyone has the ability to be evil. No one is good all the time and in the wrong enviornment anything can happen. Golding knew that people would read the book and think how could this ever happen and then realize that it IS happening everyday in the world still.
I think THE Silent Pimp put in some really good input... He has a big point in saying western culture isn't near as demanding as some... Our society is pretty lax, we live very very well compared to many others in the world...
I believe that Golding's thesis is telling us that if we do not learn from our previous salvage leaders, we are all doomed to repeat ourselves. Golding makes it clear that in order to have order, we must think before we act, not the other way around...
I also believe that Golding was telling us through this novel that as problems come up in life, you must deal with them as necessary, b/c no matter what you do, you cannot run away from them, and they will just keep on coming. There will never be a point in one's life where they are perfect w/ no complications. We need to keep a level head and approach each complication with a reasonalbe solution and move on.
I think that Golding is trying to show us how our human behaviors can quickly diminish if we chose to let them. Is it that easy for humans to become dehumanized and savage? I think that you can be overcome by your primitive instincts and therefore very susceptible to events that you know are wrong. When you get to this point, you don’t care whether what you’re doing is wrong or right because it is what your primitive state is telling you to do.
I believe that Golding is trying to show us that if we allow ourselves to give into our basic urges we can return to our savage roots. Throughout the entire book Piggy keeps himself very controlled and civil and never falls into the pandemonium that Jack creates. While Jack falls into the urge to hunt and attack and becomes completely savage. I also believe he is trying to get across that when Jack paints his face he feels free because he's hiding behind the mask. He (Golding) is trying to show us how easy it is to be cruel when you feel like you can hide behind something. I think this idea can even travel through to this current day and age because of cyber bullying and such.
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